Before the Ball: Clod Shot of 1375 - the Earliest Lead Gun Ammunition!

batjka · 19th September 2015, 02:22 PM

I was referring to Matchlock's post #10 that in turn refers to the depiction in the post #1.

Post #22 talks about a different depiction which corresponds to the theory he had described.

Still, a question remains, how were the gunners able to load the superimposed loads as to ensure that the touch holes line up with the powder charges. One version is that they had used a ramrod with markings that indicate where each projectile must end up in relation to the muzzle. I had offered another explanation, supported by the depiction in the post #1 - depth probe was inserted through the hole in the projectile and when it touched the front of the projectile below, that's when the gunner knew it's all in the proper position. This makes a lot more sense than to try to tap it from the front, where an accidental extra hit could throw the whole sequence off. The left man on the photo in the post #1 clearly has this "probe" inserted through the projectile ready to load it into the barrel.

Marcus den toom · 21st September 2015, 06:53 AM

Hi Batjka,

In my previous post i forgot to mention that eventhough the gun in post 1 has more than one touch hole, this would not always mean that every shot where to be ignited seperately. This would not make sense either because we can clearly see the holes in the clodshot. Combined with the knowledge that early gunpowder was indeed fine dust like powder, it is to be expected that the holes filled up automatically when the next load was put in. This makes a chain reaction from the top possible.

As to how the pieces where inserted, i still believe they had to be hammered in to some extend. Medieval barrels where far from smooth and if such a piece of clodshot would just slide in the gas loss would have been enormous.
And maybe they did use some sort of measurment stick to determine if the powder plus shot was fitting in between the two touch holes.

Within this theory it is possible to shoot 1 or 2 or up to 5 shots (post 1 illustration). I don't know of any gun that has multiple touch holes like this, nor of a loaded gun with more than 1 piece of clodshot. Michl had a tillered hand cannon which held 1 shot and a large load of powder. Other than that there are few examples of surviving loaded hand cannons, at least not known to me

.

Marcus den toom · 15th October 2015, 11:17 AM

Kufstein clodshot

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...558#post190558

Marcus den toom · 31st August 2016, 05:19 PM

Reviving this thread with this 7cm piece of clodshot. Lead with a stone cast together.
Found at the North sea near Northumberland.

Andi · 31st August 2016, 07:49 PM

Cool - is it yours?

Marcus den toom · 31st August 2016, 08:21 PM

Yes it is, just like this 4cm one from the same source.

fernando · 31st August 2016, 10:18 PM

You've got too many of those

.

31st August 2016, 05:19 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Reviving this thread with this 7cm piece of clodshot. Lead with a stone cast together. Found at the North sea near Northumberland. Attached Images

31st August 2016, 08:21 PM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Yes it is, just like this 4cm one from the same source. Attached Images

19th September 2015, 02:22 PM	#1
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	I was referring to Matchlock's post #10 that in turn refers to the depiction in the post #1. Post #22 talks about a different depiction which corresponds to the theory he had described. Still, a question remains, how were the gunners able to load the superimposed loads as to ensure that the touch holes line up with the powder charges. One version is that they had used a ramrod with markings that indicate where each projectile must end up in relation to the muzzle. I had offered another explanation, supported by the depiction in the post #1 - depth probe was inserted through the hole in the projectile and when it touched the front of the projectile below, that's when the gunner knew it's all in the proper position. This makes a lot more sense than to try to tap it from the front, where an accidental extra hit could throw the whole sequence off. The left man on the photo in the post #1 clearly has this "probe" inserted through the projectile ready to load it into the barrel.

21st September 2015, 06:53 AM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Hi Batjka, In my previous post i forgot to mention that eventhough the gun in post 1 has more than one touch hole, this would not always mean that every shot where to be ignited seperately. This would not make sense either because we can clearly see the holes in the clodshot. Combined with the knowledge that early gunpowder was indeed fine dust like powder, it is to be expected that the holes filled up automatically when the next load was put in. This makes a chain reaction from the top possible. As to how the pieces where inserted, i still believe they had to be hammered in to some extend. Medieval barrels where far from smooth and if such a piece of clodshot would just slide in the gas loss would have been enormous. And maybe they did use some sort of measurment stick to determine if the powder plus shot was fitting in between the two touch holes. Within this theory it is possible to shoot 1 or 2 or up to 5 shots (post 1 illustration). I don't know of any gun that has multiple touch holes like this, nor of a loaded gun with more than 1 piece of clodshot. Michl had a tillered hand cannon which held 1 shot and a large load of powder. Other than that there are few examples of surviving loaded hand cannons, at least not known to me . Last edited by Marcus den toom; 21st September 2015 at 06:35 PM.

15th October 2015, 11:17 AM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Kufstein clodshot http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...558#post190558

31st August 2016, 07:49 PM	#5
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 202	Cool - is it yours?

31st August 2016, 10:18 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	You've got too many of those .