Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th October 2015, 10:16 AM   #1
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default Clodshot found in Kufstein Austria

The historian Fugger Jäger wrote in its Chronical of the House of Austria (1555) about the siege and conquest of Kufstein following. Emperor Maximilian I ordered Micheli on September 29th 1504 against Kufstein. The Duke Albrecht of Bavaria and Erich von Braunschweig, Margrave (medieval title for the military commander assigned to maintain the defense of one of the border provinces of the Holy Roman Empire) Friedrich, Jörg and Casimir of Brandenburg and Christoph von Baden, the Baron of Freising, Würzburg and many others accompanied him.
The cities Reichenhall, Traunstein and Kitzbühel yielded rapidly. Emperor Maximilian preferred Kufstein. He had it bombarded by gunfire as to force the city to surrender. But Hans Penntzenawer von Bayern kept the citizens, who wanted to submit, by threats back. He put a garrison in the city, hoping to be able to stand the siege for a year. At the same time he fired all the cannons into the encampment of Emperor Maximilian who in return relocated his forces. He ordered a three day ceasefire as to confuse Penntzenawer. In the meantime Maximilian ordered his heavy artillery from Innsbruck (Austria), where his large armoury was situated. The cannons where transported on rafts on the river Inn. They have strange names like Schöne Kathl, Türkische Kaiserin, Burgunderin. The two biggest guns that existed at that time were called "Purlepaus" and "Weckauf" and had to be pulled each by 32 horses. The weight of the cannonballs was between 100 and 150 kg. After three days of shelling the fort was in ruins. Penntzenawer offered to surrender if Maximillian would grant him a save retreat, but he was rejected since the castle was already a ruin. On the 17th of October 1504 the castle was raided and Penntzenawer was captivated. Maximilian had Hans von Penntzenawer / Pienzenau and 17 of his fellow captains beheaded.

Right lower corner, Kufstain

.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando : 18th October 2015 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Uploading attachments with forum features
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 10:19 AM   #2
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

Predating this siege was the claim by Maximillian on territories in old Bayern, including the cities Kufstein, Rattenberg and Kitzbühel from the Wittelsbacher family. Kufstein was the property of the Penntzenawer family who reluctantly gave up Kufstein in June 1504 with their new instatement by Maximilian as caretaker of the city they once owned. After an oath, securing the allegiance from Penntzenawer, the city was left in their care and fortified with new artillery from Innsbruck. In August they rebelled and turned back to their former party, the Wittelsbacher family.

At the beginning of the siege Maximilian had 24 cannons to shoot the heavy and high walls of Kufstein from the Zellerberg. They first fired three warning shots after which Kufstein would have to capitulate or endure the bombardment of all the cannons. At first the small cannons could not penetrate the walls of Kufstein. After this Maximilian ordered the heaviest cannons from Innsbruck.



http://www.regesta-imperii.de/en/re...409e617fe#rinav

http://www.regesta-imperii.de/en/re...175daf3f5#rinav
Attached Images
   

Last edited by fernando : 18th October 2015 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Uploading attachments with forum features
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 10:22 AM   #3
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

This piece of heavy clodshot has a diameter of 63mm and weighs 1150grams. It is multi sided, but I cannot, for now, determine how many flats it has. The iron broke through the lead at the point of impact.This ball was found in Zell, a part of modern Kufstein near the river Inn. This was most likely the place where Maximilian had his encampment. Alongside this find there was also a mortar shell of approximately 10cm.

.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by fernando : 18th October 2015 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Uploading attachments with forum features
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 10:25 AM   #4
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

In the lead there are still markings from where the ramrod hit the ball when it was pushed inside the brass cannon barrel

.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by fernando : 18th October 2015 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Uploading attachments with forum features
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 10:26 AM   #5
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

.

http://www.bezirksbegleiter.at/de/p...e-von-purlepaus

Emperor Maximilian I, The last knight and first gunner (nicknames of the Emperor) loved his guns, including the weird names. Here is an abridged version of the poem "Max at Kufstein" by Anastasius Grün.

Pinzenauer looked from Kufstein on the Giant Wall
With scorn, defiance and mighty pride on down on Max's army

As an alpine vulture carefree facing his persecutors,
Far away in the deep valley the guns are aimed at him

From a hundred mortars flew thundering cannonballs
Rebounding without a trace from the heavy walls

There you saw Pinzenauern high on the wall,
A large reed bundle he held in his hand.

Where Max's cannonballs flew he cowers down
And swept the ruble scornfully with his broom.

King Maxen thoughed it took to long
But the throbbing already sounded his heartbeat

Because he called for Innsbruck, his armoury
"Sends but once the “wakeup Purlepaus!"

The walls of Kufstein waver, where his bullet struck,
The wakeup instead made some sleep forever

The Purlepaus hit the fortress hard
Hurrah! The giant walls thundering down in a loud rush!
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando : 18th October 2015 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Uploading attachments with forum features
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2015, 12:10 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,760
Default

Great work, great research, Marcus.
Max the gunner was terrible.
I hope the clodshot ball keeps round enough to roll over my little corner. Just write my address in it, may it get lost during its course
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2015, 08:21 PM   #7
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 193
Default

Nice pieces Marcus...
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th November 2015, 01:51 PM   #8
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

More interesting pictures of Kufstein.
Attached Images
  
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th November 2015, 02:39 PM   #9
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 741
Default

Very interesting read, Marcus, And very interesting ball!

I am not at all sure that the rammer would mark the ball in such a manner though. To me, it looks like a square-ended object had struck it, Possibly (and I do mean Possibly!) the ball being used in the hand as a hammer??

Again, a very interesting window into the past.

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th November 2015, 06:27 PM   #10
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 193
Default

Hello Marcus

A really nice illustration. From which manuscript is it?
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 12:31 PM   #11
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
Default

I am sure someone will have made this observation before, but one interpretation of clod shot is that it is an early, and probably quite instinctual, appreciation of the principle of armour piercing munitions. When a lead ball hits a steel plate its first instinct is to flatten, therefore its kinetic energy is distributed over a wider area. Thus if it does succeed in penetrating the plate the hole is usually rather larger than the ball itself. With clod shot the iron core presumably doesn’t significantly deform, the same energy is concentrated on a smaller area, therefore more likely to penetrate the plate. The same principle was used in more modern armour piercing munitions where a hardened steel projectile is encased in a softer sabot one function of the sabot being to help stop the projectile being deflected when hitting an oblique target which was a problem with early armour piercing projectiles. The same principle would seem to apply to clod shot. The angular core might have been found to, or believed to, increase its armour piercing potential, if this interpretation is sound then it ought to be a useful dating guide for early battle sites where the presence of clod shot would imply a date where armour was still considered a viable defensive option. With the demise of armour and better gunpowder clod shot became redundant,
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 01:23 PM   #12
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

Hi Raf,

Michael has written a very good piece about clodshots in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=clodshot

He believed, an so do i, that the lead was mostly used to shoot iron "balls" from Brass cannons without wearing them down to fast. The softer lead would ease the wear on the barrel walls. The corners on the iron core where made to closely resemble a ball shape. The lead was most could have been wraped around the iron core, but also cast.. this debate i still not finished.

Best
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 01:32 PM   #13
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 741
Default

Raf,

I can well understand your thoughts on this, and it may be so.
Another point could possibly be that the iron ball could be made somewhat roughly, and when encased in lead, it could do no damage to the bore of the gun firing it. (like a lead sabot) whereas without it, it could tear the barrel up quite quickly.
Re. armour piercing;
I think that a ball this size, about 2 1/2" or so, it would make no difference whether it penetrated or not! If no penetration occurred, it would mangle and flatten any armour, And the individual wearing it!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Sorry Marcus, our posts overlapped!!
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 02:21 PM   #14
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
Default

Of course your right . Makes no sense as an armour piercing projectile unless someone digs up a smaller version. Simply mis read Marcus ( very clear ) description. Still intrigued by the square cores. Reminds me of the interchangeable chambers of Mr Puckles quick - firing gun . Round bullets for Christians . Square bullets for the rest . One does wonder what put this idea into his head.

Last edited by Raf : 11th November 2015 at 04:28 PM.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 04:21 PM   #15
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

hahah, no problem Richard.

And Raf, as per request here are some iron core and stone core clodshot pieces from my collection.
The vary from 2-2,5cm.
Attached Images
  
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 04:49 PM   #16
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
Default

Thanks Marcus . So to be absolutely clear the smaller iron cored projectiles have a diameter of around 2.5 cm , 1 inch imperial . About the bore of an average anti personnel hand - cannon of the period .
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 06:25 PM   #17
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 460
Default

That is correct Raf
My own haquebut has a similar bore of about 22mm and many of my hand cannons have a bore up to 34mm.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 06:40 PM   #18
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,711
Default

cool. the festung looks like it has had a number of upgrades since the above, with some more 'modern' emplacements and vauban style structures.
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 06:40 PM   #19
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,760
Default

Raf's approach to the Puckle gun shows us an amazing angle of the bullet history.
Not yet knowing about it, i browsed the Net and i found in the Wiki such bizarre justification for his selection of different bullet shapes:

Puckle demonstrated two configurations of the basic design: one, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets. The square bullets were considered to be more damaging. They would, according to the patent, "convince the Turks of the benefits of Christian civilization."...

Back to ancient clod shot, not only Marcus has the examples he shows us here but i am aware that he is also familiar with square or, better say, cylindrical whole lead bullets, which are also an interesting variant of these ancient projectiles.
The ones below are also very interesting, although not so intrincate as those initially shown.

And if i may digress a bit more ...
I bet you people are aware that although gunmakers only decided to change the bullets shape to a cylindrical and pointed design in the second quarter XIX century, there are drawings of Leonardo Da Vinci showing such idea.
I was also thrilled when a year ago i handled a fine flintlock musket with a square bore, something i thought to be only a fantasy. But i took it as just an exhibiting purpose of both gunmaker and customer, that not for practical reasons.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2015, 06:47 PM   #20
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,711
Default

add two sides and you get the whitworth hexagonal projectile used with hexagonal rifling. a design used up to the present (by Heckler-Koch). that makes a projectile suitable for christians and muslims
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.