A MAMELUKE SABRE FOR COMENTS

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2010, 11:09 PM

Good notes Richard, and I think what is most unusual are as you say, the lack of British markings, with the same case applying to the absence of American markings. I agree this would not be French, as thier officers indeed were attracted to ostentatious decoration, and it seems the grips were often of darker colored horn rather than ivory.

The truncated ear and langet piece of the crossguard is indeed unusual, and I cannot as yet find a corresponding example, with the exception of the instance of reproduction US Marine Corps sabres I have seen. Obviously this cannot be used for a reference, but it is curious to see the feature on these, and begs the question, why would this particular truncated shape be chosen.
Most of the mameluke style sabres, especially in the perameters of the regulation patterns, both British and American, are fully shaped and with various decoration in the ecusson.

The bulbous quillon terminals on this example we are discussing seem very much like the Prosser example you show, and most of the other examples are acorn or more classical shapes.

The British dress regulations of 1822 I believe were specifically directed toward lancer officers , who had apparantly already been wearing versions of these mameluke sabres since 1816. Robson ("Swords of the British Army" p.69) notes that officers of light dragoons (forerunners of lancer regiments) had been wearing these since as early as 1805. Also noted are comments by British general Mercer, "...generals and our field officers seemed to wear what they pleased and after the Egyptian campaign (1801) the mameluke sabre was quite the rage".

While it is hard to make out through the pitting, it seems that perhaps within this military motif on the blade are crossed lances? which are noted as having been seen on the lancer officer blades. If in these early, pre regulation times, these swords had become a popular 'rage' in England as well as in the U.S., it seems feasible that a rather generic, military themed sabre, might have been produced in Solingen which might have been marketed to officers of either country. The period in which we agree this sabre seems provenanced was notably in times of geopolitical strife, and with the major powers interested in these form sabres all being at some sort of odds, this might have been prudent.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 5th April 2010, 08:17 PM

Thank you so much for your extremely interesting coments, Gentlemen.
Manolo, the spine is flat. The only engraving i can see on it is a little efect on the forte section, more looking like a floral decor than a graphic mark ... unfortunately.
I have taken new pictures of the engravings, but the results were not such a success.
There are five decoration parts in both faces. One at the forte, partly hidden by the langets, composed of florals supported by semi circumferencial lines; next to it an isolated branch, followed by the main (martial) motif. The next is flower; finally a little narrow crosswise efect, of cursive type.
I still think this blade had (has) some dark finish to it, with the decoration in some whitish contrast.
I see Jim's point in that some of the martial efects in both faces may be lances ... eventualy with pennons. But aren't these, together with flags, drums and cannons, a mix that probably only pretend to be an allusion to the military theme in general?
Also i find well placed Richard's impression in that this must be a Solingen blade, as also accepted by Jim.
A private purchase, most certainly.
But then we have this riddle with the hilt; it does indeed lack the usual presumption of a sword to be used in parade or cerimonies by a General Officer. Also in Portugal these hilts were available for General officers, from which i have pictures of entire swords, as also loose hilt examples in one of my books.
It would then have probably belonged to a mid rank officer, definitely for use in combat. Also to consider that Generals had swords of plainer version to go on the field; would this be plausible?
Equally worthy of note is that Wellington, the person who highly influenced the fashion of Mameluke sabres in Europe, has been in Portugal between 1809 and 1814, in charge of the Anglo-Portuguese forces, during the Peninsular War.
I would also emphasize that the grip plates in these hilts are usualy held in place by the lanyard eyelet in the back end and their prolongation to beneath the upper langets in the front, the grip buttons being only for fantasy. In the case of this sword, not only the plates penetrate into the langets, as also the buttons are actual rather strong screws; even admiting that such screws were a later adiction ... still a symptom of this sword use in battle.
Once again thank you for your precious input. May i however, consider this an open thread, with a strong desire to soon find more about the identity of this sword.
Fernando

celtan · 5th April 2010, 09:35 PM

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

Ian Knight · 5th April 2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

Solingen I think.

Ian.

celtan · 6th April 2010, 12:09 AM

Hi Ian,

I have owned, and probably still have a couple, Klingenthal blades. Some were from the Coulaux brothers. They shared similar engravings in their spines. For private orders, the usual Klingenthal markers do not appear. As example, the Coulaux Freres mark would appear on the ricasso, yet heavy use often erases it.

Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

OTOH: There's the matter of a CW southern blade I own, which has a similar spine design, but which I haven't yet been able to pinpoint its provenance...

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Solingen I think.

Ian.

Richard · 9th April 2010, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Ian,

Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

Best

M

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Richard

celtan · 14th April 2010, 09:56 PM

Hi Richard,

I'm quite familiar with Klingenthal, merci beaucoup a Jean Binck.
But thanks for the refresher, anyway. : )
For some reason, I did not keep a good picture depot of my old blades, yet I found this one, clearly w the Coulaux inscription. The other one I had, I couldn't get a clear picture of the ricasso, the langet obscuring the name.

Best regards

M

the other, also Klingenthal (Vallee des lames : )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Richard

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2010, 09:36 PM

Outstanding Fernando, and I think your ideas are very plausible. It does seem that there would have most certainly been a distinct awareness of these stylish sabres by Portuguese officers. The style itself is quite simple in the ivory Ottoman style grips with sword knot eyelet, and simple crossguard. This being the case we can only rely on subtle nuances such as the quillon terminals or perhaps the profile of the grips to lend identification to us.

You are right that the lances in the background in the panoply of military symbolism were pretty much a standard feature, as by thier length this would serve well as an inclusive yet visible backdrop.

The adoption of these sabres by US lancer officers was certainly inline with the American affinity for French fashion in uniforms and weaponry, and as has been noted, the French had begun use of these right after the Egyptian campaigns. American contact with these sabres was also established with thier own contact with Mamluks during the wars with Barbary pirates in this same period.

The British adoption of these sabres was not officially noted until 1822 for lancer officers, and not until 1831 for general and staff officers, but as is often the case, the regulations followed already established presence of the swords. By this time, these were well embellished and intended for dress and levee wear. It seems as noted that this sabre, by its solid simplicity, is indeed a combat weapon, and it is well known that cavalry officers had plainer example swords intended for use in combat explicitly. The agreed observation that this is a Solingen product intended to respond to the popularity of this sabre's form for officers suggests it might have been acquired by one in a number of armies of the time.

All the best,
Jim

5th April 2010, 08:17 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your extremely interesting coments, Gentlemen. Manolo, the spine is flat. The only engraving i can see on it is a little efect on the forte section, more looking like a floral decor than a graphic mark ... unfortunately. I have taken new pictures of the engravings, but the results were not such a success. There are five decoration parts in both faces. One at the forte, partly hidden by the langets, composed of florals supported by semi circumferencial lines; next to it an isolated branch, followed by the main (martial) motif. The next is flower; finally a little narrow crosswise efect, of cursive type. I still think this blade had (has) some dark finish to it, with the decoration in some whitish contrast. I see Jim's point in that some of the martial efects in both faces may be lances ... eventualy with pennons. But aren't these, together with flags, drums and cannons, a mix that probably only pretend to be an allusion to the military theme in general? Also i find well placed Richard's impression in that this must be a Solingen blade, as also accepted by Jim. A private purchase, most certainly. But then we have this riddle with the hilt; it does indeed lack the usual presumption of a sword to be used in parade or cerimonies by a General Officer. Also in Portugal these hilts were available for General officers, from which i have pictures of entire swords, as also loose hilt examples in one of my books. It would then have probably belonged to a mid rank officer, definitely for use in combat. Also to consider that Generals had swords of plainer version to go on the field; would this be plausible? Equally worthy of note is that Wellington, the person who highly influenced the fashion of Mameluke sabres in Europe, has been in Portugal between 1809 and 1814, in charge of the Anglo-Portuguese forces, during the Peninsular War. I would also emphasize that the grip plates in these hilts are usualy held in place by the lanyard eyelet in the back end and their prolongation to beneath the upper langets in the front, the grip buttons being only for fantasy. In the case of this sword, not only the plates penetrate into the langets, as also the buttons are actual rather strong screws; even admiting that such screws were a later adiction ... still a symptom of this sword use in battle. Once again thank you for your precious input. May i however, consider this an open thread, with a strong desire to soon find more about the identity of this sword. Fernando Attached Images

5th April 2010, 09:35 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I believe its a Klingenthal blade. Last edited by celtan; 5th April 2010 at 09:50 PM.

4th April 2010, 11:09 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Good notes Richard, and I think what is most unusual are as you say, the lack of British markings, with the same case applying to the absence of American markings. I agree this would not be French, as thier officers indeed were attracted to ostentatious decoration, and it seems the grips were often of darker colored horn rather than ivory. The truncated ear and langet piece of the crossguard is indeed unusual, and I cannot as yet find a corresponding example, with the exception of the instance of reproduction US Marine Corps sabres I have seen. Obviously this cannot be used for a reference, but it is curious to see the feature on these, and begs the question, why would this particular truncated shape be chosen. Most of the mameluke style sabres, especially in the perameters of the regulation patterns, both British and American, are fully shaped and with various decoration in the ecusson. The bulbous quillon terminals on this example we are discussing seem very much like the Prosser example you show, and most of the other examples are acorn or more classical shapes. The British dress regulations of 1822 I believe were specifically directed toward lancer officers , who had apparantly already been wearing versions of these mameluke sabres since 1816. Robson ("Swords of the British Army" p.69) notes that officers of light dragoons (forerunners of lancer regiments) had been wearing these since as early as 1805. Also noted are comments by British general Mercer, "...generals and our field officers seemed to wear what they pleased and after the Egyptian campaign (1801) the mameluke sabre was quite the rage". While it is hard to make out through the pitting, it seems that perhaps within this military motif on the blade are crossed lances? which are noted as having been seen on the lancer officer blades. If in these early, pre regulation times, these swords had become a popular 'rage' in England as well as in the U.S., it seems feasible that a rather generic, military themed sabre, might have been produced in Solingen which might have been marketed to officers of either country. The period in which we agree this sabre seems provenanced was notably in times of geopolitical strife, and with the major powers interested in these form sabres all being at some sort of odds, this might have been prudent. All best regards, Jim

5th April 2010, 09:36 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding Fernando, and I think your ideas are very plausible. It does seem that there would have most certainly been a distinct awareness of these stylish sabres by Portuguese officers. The style itself is quite simple in the ivory Ottoman style grips with sword knot eyelet, and simple crossguard. This being the case we can only rely on subtle nuances such as the quillon terminals or perhaps the profile of the grips to lend identification to us. You are right that the lances in the background in the panoply of military symbolism were pretty much a standard feature, as by thier length this would serve well as an inclusive yet visible backdrop. The adoption of these sabres by US lancer officers was certainly inline with the American affinity for French fashion in uniforms and weaponry, and as has been noted, the French had begun use of these right after the Egyptian campaigns. American contact with these sabres was also established with thier own contact with Mamluks during the wars with Barbary pirates in this same period. The British adoption of these sabres was not officially noted until 1822 for lancer officers, and not until 1831 for general and staff officers, but as is often the case, the regulations followed already established presence of the swords. By this time, these were well embellished and intended for dress and levee wear. It seems as noted that this sabre, by its solid simplicity, is indeed a combat weapon, and it is well known that cavalry officers had plainer example swords intended for use in combat explicitly. The agreed observation that this is a Solingen product intended to respond to the popularity of this sabre's form for officers suggests it might have been acquired by one in a number of armies of the time. All the best, Jim