Help with Keris ID?

littledirtnap · 30th May 2005, 07:12 PM

Here is another try at decent images..hope this helps!

I'm dying to know what this pamor means, and the number of waves.I'll also keep reading on my own (thanks for the recommendations)

tom hyle · 30th May 2005, 08:30 PM

Sure does look like a Moro gunong handle. It's possible the "assembly" was made in Iceland, but it is worth noting that there is a thick layer of some kind of black substance between blade and hilt, and it sure does look like boiled down pitch. European cutler's pitch I've seen has a "blond" colour. I propose that this is an Indonesian blade traded/stolen/whatever to Moroland and hilted by a Moro?.....

littledirtnap · 30th May 2005, 09:37 PM

Looking at it first hand, the black substance looks like a leather separator soaked in pitch..Thanks for the input!

Rick · 30th May 2005, 09:45 PM

Pamors really don't 'mean' anything they are more talismanic in nature ; some are for wealth , success in business , popularity , control over others , protection etc.

There is no doubt that is a Moro gunong hilt and a nicely figured one .

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 10:55 PM

Well everyone is giving you fairly correct info so i don't have much to add. This looks like an old Javanese keris with pretty good age to it. Unfortunately much of the ricikan (features) have been lost to erosion, probably from extensive washing.
Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows.

I agree with Rick that your pamor would have a specific "meaning" per se, but rather a more general nature.
Interesting mismatch of hilt and blade. I would suggest you get a "proper" hilt fot it, but then there seems to be some history working here, no matter how muddled, that should probably be preserved.

Spunjer · 30th May 2005, 11:03 PM

well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

Good point. Certainly someone had a sense of what they were doing here. Though it seems they used far too much pitch to attach the blade.

tom hyle · 31st May 2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

....Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows......

I'm not sure I agree with me, either, especially if that is a leather spacer, which is an European custom. On the other hand, if it is just thick hard pitch resembling leather, as I can envision it doing, I still vote Moro mounting. In contrast to barongs or kris sundang, Moro gunongs often are rather thin-bladed, and though there are also thicker ones, I am not convinced that this relates directly to authenticity/intent to use/etc. So use of the relatively frail k(e)ris blade like this may not be inapropriate. I have seen also dagger sized Moro kris, of pretty Moro looking work etc. but have never read or heard much about them; just that I know there is a tradition of dagger sized kris in Moroland. The only other thing I'd like to add is that I think a deeper understanding of gunong and some pedangs is that they are lower-teir versions of k(e)ris; they could typically be made by any smith (kris and k(e)ris often had laws and traditions restricting this), carried by any person (ditto), used for any purpose (ditto), made without the rituals or complications (seperate gonga, okar) of kris/k(e)ris, and of simpler materials, but with much the same handling style.
So, very broadly it is a proper hilt, and for all that the cavity is likely much wider than the tang, and perhaps shorter (I don't think the handle was made for it, or it would fit all the way in; I think the assembly is after market for both parts), I don't think I'd rehilt it if it is solidly together, at least. Now, I'm back to look at the ferule, and see if I agree that there's something unusual about it; I don't remember anything....

30th May 2005, 07:12 PM	#1
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Here is another try at decent images..hope this helps! I'm dying to know what this pamor means, and the number of waves.I'll also keep reading on my own (thanks for the recommendations) Attached Images

30th May 2005, 09:45 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Pamors Pamors really don't 'mean' anything they are more talismanic in nature ; some are for wealth , success in business , popularity , control over others , protection etc. There is no doubt that is a Moro gunong hilt and a nicely figured one .

30th May 2005, 08:30 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Sure does look like a Moro gunong handle. It's possible the "assembly" was made in Iceland, but it is worth noting that there is a thick layer of some kind of black substance between blade and hilt, and it sure does look like boiled down pitch. European cutler's pitch I've seen has a "blond" colour. I propose that this is an Indonesian blade traded/stolen/whatever to Moroland and hilted by a Moro?.....

30th May 2005, 09:37 PM	#3
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Looking at it first hand, the black substance looks like a leather separator soaked in pitch..Thanks for the input!

30th May 2005, 10:55 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well everyone is giving you fairly correct info so i don't have much to add. This looks like an old Javanese keris with pretty good age to it. Unfortunately much of the ricikan (features) have been lost to erosion, probably from extensive washing. Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows. I agree with Rick that your pamor would have a specific "meaning" per se, but rather a more general nature. Interesting mismatch of hilt and blade. I would suggest you get a "proper" hilt fot it, but then there seems to be some history working here, no matter how muddled, that should probably be preserved.

30th May 2005, 11:03 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...