Kebo Lajer - dapur meaning?

ganjawulung · 1st April 2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Many years ago the meaning of "kebo lajer" was given to me by a very well respected East Javanese mystic, who was also a keris collector, as "leader of kerbau".

I've just checked in Zoetmulder Jawa Kuna - Indonesian book, yes, you are right Alan. "Lajer" literally means "main pillar". No wonder, if "kebo lajer" was translated as "leader of kerbau"...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 11:19 PM

I didn't know that teki root was used as a face powder source, but I do know that it can be eaten. I think I've heard somewhere that it can be made into a kind of emping too.

Quite frankly, some of --- no, most of --- the dhapur names leave me totally mystified. I feel that it is sometimes a case of something being relevant or understood at some point in the past, but being in the realm of complete nonsense now.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Quite frankly, some of --- no, most of --- the dhapur names leave me totally mystified. I feel that it is sometimes a case of something being relevant or understood at some point in the past, but being in the realm of complete nonsense now.

On the oral tradition. People in the past in Java usually get lesson -- moral lesson, for instance -- from oral tradition. Not from books. But from "tembang" (javanese recited poetry). This tradition is so strong, and some of old people they could memorize each word of the tembang. Including names of kerises. Do you thing these names of keris mentioned in tembang -- for instance -- also are complete nonsense?

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 01:35 AM

Pak Ganja, may I draw your attention to my complete text:-

I feel that it is sometimes a case of something being relevant or understood at some point in the past, but being in the realm of complete nonsense NOW.

The way in which things are understood depends upon the use of language and social mores at any particular time.

The way in which a word, or a phrase, or even body language, may have been understood in any place at any time in the past is not necessarily the same as the way in which these things are understood at any other point in time, nor in any other place.

To apply this fact to the case in point:-

let us acknowledge that the names of the various dhapur did have some meaning, either open or esoteric at some point in time past; clearly if they did carry a meaning for some people at that point in time, they were not nonsense

the strict meaning of the word "nonsense", in the context in which I have used it is:-

"spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense"

to a very large degree the dhapur names of keris at the present point in time fall precisely within this definition:- they have no meaning and they make no sense, however, this is not to say that they did not have a meaning at some time in the past, nor that they made no sense at some time in the past.

All of the foregoing is implied by the three letter word "now" in my original post.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 03:18 AM

I apologize for not to notice on "now"... I just feel, that in the past this naming of keris dapur in Java such as kebo lajer, was intentionally to express certain purpose of the keris making...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 04:51 AM

Yes, I agree, there was a sense and meaning attached to the naming of dhapur in the past, but we seem to have lost that understanding at the present time.

1st April 2010, 11:19 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I didn't know that teki root was used as a face powder source, but I do know that it can be eaten. I think I've heard somewhere that it can be made into a kind of emping too. Quite frankly, some of --- no, most of --- the dhapur names leave me totally mystified. I feel that it is sometimes a case of something being relevant or understood at some point in the past, but being in the realm of complete nonsense now.

2nd April 2010, 01:35 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pak Ganja, may I draw your attention to my complete text:- I feel that it is sometimes a case of something being relevant or understood at some point in the past, but being in the realm of complete nonsense NOW. The way in which things are understood depends upon the use of language and social mores at any particular time. The way in which a word, or a phrase, or even body language, may have been understood in any place at any time in the past is not necessarily the same as the way in which these things are understood at any other point in time, nor in any other place. To apply this fact to the case in point:- let us acknowledge that the names of the various dhapur did have some meaning, either open or esoteric at some point in time past; clearly if they did carry a meaning for some people at that point in time, they were not nonsense the strict meaning of the word "nonsense", in the context in which I have used it is:- "spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense" to a very large degree the dhapur names of keris at the present point in time fall precisely within this definition:- they have no meaning and they make no sense, however, this is not to say that they did not have a meaning at some time in the past, nor that they made no sense at some time in the past. All of the foregoing is implied by the three letter word "now" in my original post.

2nd April 2010, 03:18 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	I apologize for not to notice on "now"... I just feel, that in the past this naming of keris dapur in Java such as kebo lajer, was intentionally to express certain purpose of the keris making... GANJAWULUNG

2nd April 2010, 04:51 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, I agree, there was a sense and meaning attached to the naming of dhapur in the past, but we seem to have lost that understanding at the present time.