Baskethilt

Jeff D · 30th May 2005, 04:09 PM

Hi Yannis,

You are correct this could be a Spanish blade as the Scots are known to revere them. The German makers were well aware of this and often "borrowed" the Spanish marks. In addition to the German and Spanish blades, French blades can be found on Scottish baskethilts. I think this is a German blade by its style as well as a detail which I have left out of the photo's. I will post it later as well as why I left it out once everyone has been able to comment.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your comments. I think the main reason these tend to be expensive is not the usual market forces, but, the superior haggling skills of the Scots

. I went 30% over my absolute maximum on this one. My 1/4 Scotch ancestry was no match for a thoroughbred.

Hi Jim,

I think you are right on with your dating of both the hilt and the blade. As I explained to Yannis I left out a detail which I think confirms this. It should also help confirm a theory I have. I will also start looking to see the sphere of these blades with this motto.

Thanks for all the comments so far.
Jeff

Jeff D · 31st May 2005, 12:44 AM

Ok, does this change things?

Jeff

Rivkin · 31st May 2005, 12:47 AM

I'm probably the most ignorant of all of you, but it looks like Solingen's sun and moon motiff to me.

Jeff D · 31st May 2005, 05:08 PM

Hi Rivkin,

I totally agree that it is the star and moon motif typical of Solingen. I have always thought that they were used between 1780-1830.
However what do you think of this? The description is; "Small-sword, French, c. 1750 (top), from the collection of the Duke of Northumberland; and closed-hilt broadsword, English, c. 1590 (bottom)."
Similar blade similar star and moon?

Jeff

engar · 31st May 2005, 08:01 PM

The inscription on this blade is indeed referred to as 'the Spanish motto' (Aylward, 1945) although I believe it is actually in Latin, linguists please correct me if that is not the case.
I´m not a linguist but there is not doubt about the language of the motto, Spanish.

Very interesting sword and motto, in "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima" Grand Master Leo Giron used this motto to guide the lector in situations were: "If trouble find you, and there are no other means of settling it, then be guided by the words inscribed on the sword of the famous knights of yesteryear".

Enrique.

Rivkin · 31st May 2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Rivkin,

I totally agree that it is the star and moon motif typical of Solingen. I have always thought that they were used between 1780-1830.
However what do you think of this? The description is; "Small-sword, French, c. 1750 (top), from the collection of the Duke of Northumberland; and closed-hilt broadsword, English, c. 1590 (bottom)."
Similar blade similar star and moon?

Jeff

I'm not troubled by this - if french blade is made by Manufacture d'Armes Blanches d' Alsace (Klingenthal), then it's easy to explain - all ranking masters who worked at Klingenthal were initially from Solingen.

As far as I remember english attempt to revive the native sword productio also included inviting a few solingen families.

Jim McDougall · 31st May 2005, 10:06 PM

The moon and sun figures are characteristic cabalistic markings used on Solingen blades from the first half of 18th century onward and may have even been used in variation earlier. The very large block letters are also found in a number of Solingen applications imitating Spanish markings, including 'Toledo' and 'Sahagun' for some of the most common.

The Solingen blade cutlers during the 17th century did expand into not only England (Shotley Bridge and Hounslow) but by the 18th century into many other European cities to set up small businesses. Another key location was Vira, near Stockholm, in the 17th century.

Enrique, thank you for confirming the motto is indeed in Spanish, as it should be

One must admit, it is a grand and perfectly worded motto.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 31st May 2005, 11:39 PM

Thanks engar.

Hi Rivkin, it is not the English atribute that bothers me it is the date. The blade is undoubtedly German and the hilt is English. 1590 seems way to early. But who am I to contradict Oakeshott!

Hi Jim, As we have discussed this before, these moon, sun etc. motifs seem to occur in a fairly narrow time period starting in the later 18th century. I am still looking for a datable sword with this motif that is earlier than 1750. I suspect Oakeshott dated this by attributing the markings to Peter Munich. I don't know if he is correct. This is also why I left out the symbols on my original posting as my sword is quite datable by the other features as you expertly displayed. Thanks!

Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords?

Thanks All.
Jeff

31st May 2005, 12:44 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Ok, does this change things? Jeff Attached Images

31st May 2005, 05:08 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rivkin, I totally agree that it is the star and moon motif typical of Solingen. I have always thought that they were used between 1780-1830. However what do you think of this? The description is; "Small-sword, French, c. 1750 (top), from the collection of the Duke of Northumberland; and closed-hilt broadsword, English, c. 1590 (bottom)." Similar blade similar star and moon? Jeff Attached Images

31st May 2005, 11:39 PM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks engar. Hi Rivkin, it is not the English atribute that bothers me it is the date. The blade is undoubtedly German and the hilt is English. 1590 seems way to early. But who am I to contradict Oakeshott! Hi Jim, As we have discussed this before, these moon, sun etc. motifs seem to occur in a fairly narrow time period starting in the later 18th century. I am still looking for a datable sword with this motif that is earlier than 1750. I suspect Oakeshott dated this by attributing the markings to Peter Munich. I don't know if he is correct. This is also why I left out the symbols on my original posting as my sword is quite datable by the other features as you expertly displayed. Thanks! Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords? Thanks All. Jeff Attached Images

30th May 2005, 04:09 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Yannis, You are correct this could be a Spanish blade as the Scots are known to revere them. The German makers were well aware of this and often "borrowed" the Spanish marks. In addition to the German and Spanish blades, French blades can be found on Scottish baskethilts. I think this is a German blade by its style as well as a detail which I have left out of the photo's. I will post it later as well as why I left it out once everyone has been able to comment. Hi Mark, Thank you for your comments. I think the main reason these tend to be expensive is not the usual market forces, but, the superior haggling skills of the Scots . I went 30% over my absolute maximum on this one. My 1/4 Scotch ancestry was no match for a thoroughbred. Hi Jim, I think you are right on with your dating of both the hilt and the blade. As I explained to Yannis I left out a detail which I think confirms this. It should also help confirm a theory I have. I will also start looking to see the sphere of these blades with this motto. Thanks for all the comments so far. Jeff

31st May 2005, 12:47 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm probably the most ignorant of all of you, but it looks like Solingen's sun and moon motiff to me.

31st May 2005, 08:01 PM	#5
engar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 14	The inscription on this blade is indeed referred to as 'the Spanish motto' (Aylward, 1945) although I believe it is actually in Latin, linguists please correct me if that is not the case. I´m not a linguist but there is not doubt about the language of the motto, Spanish. Very interesting sword and motto, in "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima" Grand Master Leo Giron used this motto to guide the lector in situations were: "If trouble find you, and there are no other means of settling it, then be guided by the words inscribed on the sword of the famous knights of yesteryear". Enrique.

31st May 2005, 10:06 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	The moon and sun figures are characteristic cabalistic markings used on Solingen blades from the first half of 18th century onward and may have even been used in variation earlier. The very large block letters are also found in a number of Solingen applications imitating Spanish markings, including 'Toledo' and 'Sahagun' for some of the most common. The Solingen blade cutlers during the 17th century did expand into not only England (Shotley Bridge and Hounslow) but by the 18th century into many other European cities to set up small businesses. Another key location was Vira, near Stockholm, in the 17th century. Enrique, thank you for confirming the motto is indeed in Spanish, as it should be One must admit, it is a grand and perfectly worded motto. Best regards, Jim