keris melayu for comment

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?
My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...
Does the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"?
I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Ganja, this is a good question that i have often wonder about as i discovered some time ago that a Javanese carita bears little characteristic similarities with the Peninsula form of the same name.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?

Dear pak Jimmy,

I don't think the question is stupid. I've though of it as well. I do not feel that it's the same as the javanese dapur Carita. When mentioned as keris cherita (carita/cerita), in Malay context, it meant a Peninsular piece with shallow fullers.. normally in a straight blade configuration of the Peninsular variety. However, there are contentions, from the various school of thoughts. For a book on Peninsular Kerises, you can refer to my site, Rahsia Keris Melayu. The book is written in Malay.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...

In my post, I indicate cherita (cerita/carita) not as a dapur. I indicated as "a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani". In malay language of the Peninsular, there are various accents, the use of the brackets is to indicate alternative spelling and pronunciation. I'm aware of the various carita dapurs you mentioned. That is not what I meant.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"? I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

Unfortunately, I do not have enough knowledge to be certain if it does or does not have relation. However, the loose translation of cherita is, 'a blade with a story'.. I suppose, in the Peninsular, the term is loosely used refering to a variety of blades regardless of luks, unlike in Java, where it is strictly adhered to, a dapur form in pakem. I hope that gives you some clarity with my statement.

[PenangsangII]

Ultimately, when naming a pamor or dapur or whatever with respect to the keris, it must have to have certain meaning, the philosophy behind a name...
I believe Javanese terminology such as Charita has its philosophy why it is named as such....

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

Then, Penangsang, could you guarantee -- that the hilt being with the blade, is the "original" hilt. Or who could guarantee? And what happened if -- for instance -- you got a Bugis blade which geographically could be a couple thousand kilometers away from you in Sulawesi, then you dressed it for your purpose locally where you belong to now -- and you dressed the blade as a Terengganu dress, for instance? Or Kelantanese dress or Javanese, Cirebonese dress. Can you nail it as a Terengganu, or Kelantan keris, a Javanese keris, a Cirebonese keris?

GANJAWULUNG

[PenangsangII]

Salam Pak Ganja,

In Peninsula, if we try to define keris blades (old) based on geographical origin, we tend to split into 2 categories - keris Melayu and keris Jawa.

Having said that, keris Jawa is easier to categorize as it has pakems, tangguh and also a lot of reference to go back to. But then when it comes to keris Melayu (Bugis included), we wud be having big problems. No one can tell for sure whether its a Trengganu, or Perak or Kelantan/Pattani piece. No record whatsoever about empu that can be traced back, say to 200 years. Sulawesi is a different matter, because we somewhat can tell the wesi used, the garap style, blade profile and thru experience - tanting to check the bobot. That also no one can tell for sure..... If we use dress as an indicator, I think the chances of our tangguhan to be correct is almost .... well... none