Old Dutch hanger

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2010, 06:55 AM

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as I noted, I was pretty much following your lead, and since I had heard of these coins before just revisited that data. It was great to find that exact pattern on the coin....I recall in some earlier discussion on smallswords there was a star type configuration on some Dutch sword blades in this same manner. I am wondering if the native armourers were simply applying this mark in the same sense they might have perceived those.
It seems that these type swords were produced as early as the previous century for merchants and traders as essentially status symbols, although they were obviously with ivory, horn and in some cases possibly crystal. Some of these decorative swords were probably diplomatic gifts, and there were makers in the central regions who produced lavish weapons for the Kandy rulers in earlier times.

Since this is carved wood, I would suspect it is an item produced in about the period suggested c.1800-20 as British rule took over, and probably intended for trade market. Carved wood seems to suggest native production although unusual for weapons as an accoutrement in official use. In Southern India after the defeat of Tipu Sultan in 1799, there was brisk production of weapons produced in 'Tipu's Mysori style compounded with British form intended for British officers and presentations to local officials and military. Some of these had brass hilts with Tipu style features along with the British military M1796 pattern.
Perhaps this type circumstance existed in Ceylon in the same way.

It would really be interesting to hear opinions from Anandalal, Olikara and Cornelis with thier direct connections to this historical environment.
In any case, always fun to work with you on these mysteries

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th March 2010, 09:40 AM

HI,
there was a development in Holland of a very interesting type of cross hilts in the middle of the 17thC the so called "leeuwengevesten"or lionhilt.
on those Hilts the Lion takes most of the space of the hilt.
such a hilt can be seen on the town guard of Hoorn painting of Jan Albertsz. Rotius made in 1655.
In the same time Golden Lion hilts were given to fleet owners for their duties by the VOC of Amsterdam. unfortunately we only know them now from paintings and no existing sample is known.

later the German sculper Goottfried Leygebe made also a lionhilt however the development on Holland was before his work.

now the sword of mark is a wooden? carving probably Dutch and made in one of its colonies or on the way to one of them.
the original of this wooden hilt, where a lion is attacked by four dogs is the same as on the painting of Rotius, in casted silver is laying in the tower of London.IX-849.

Mark, your sword is an interesting piece of Dutch history, I would love to have one like this.

best regards from Holland

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2010, 02:42 PM

Excellent!!! There we have it!
Cornelis thank you so much for coming in on this, and I was sure you have have some well placed insight into a weapon of this intriguing nature with such apparantly profound Dutch history connection.
With this information it does seem that this cross hilt weapon was most likely contemporary with the type Mark has noted in "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (c.1660) and probably carved in the colonies.
The connection to the four dot configuration on the blade, while seen on the one stuiver coins of the latter part of the 18th century, while associating this sword with the VOC sphere, cannot be construed as setting the date of the weapon in that period as this symbolic arrangement must have been present earlier.

Cornelis, do you have thoughts or information on what the four dot rosette might signify?

Thank you again for this information, and it is truly exciting to see yet another 'mystery' sword turn out to be an important item of this fascinating part of Dutch history.

All very best regards,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th March 2010, 07:59 PM

Hi Jim,

my pleasure

I think the dots only represent "the cross", usually on voc swords the date is placed between 2 of those dot crosses.

best regards

M ELEY · 27th March 2010, 10:14 PM

A profound 'thank you', Cornelis and Jim for your valuable input on this sword. Its origin has been troubling me for over a decade and now I can finally see a clear picture of its history. Of course, I couldn't be more happier, as a colony piece such as this very likely could have seen sea service. Again, I can't thank you enough for solving this mystery!
Cheers!
Mark

Anandalal N. · 30th March 2010, 02:04 AM

Dear Mark,

Your sword is indeed a very interesting one.

Sources clearly point to the Kastane Sword in the final form - lion head pommel, monster quillons etc., being found in the Dutch Period of Ceylon's history [mid 17th century to the late 18th century] as a sword denoting rank or authority. The British period comes thereafter and continued till the mid 20th century.

The lion form has significance to the Sinhalese people and has been utilized in their art, including in the Kastana hilt. However, the form that is found on your sword hilt is not one that I have come across so far. Particularly the form of half lion, half human - probably a shamanistic form where the human merges with the spirit of the lion in a trance state - could not be traced in Sinhalese art. Although shamanistic practices are still found in the country; with the influence of Buddhism such practices have moved away from the mainstream. Thus shamanistic art is rare in Ceylon. I am aware of one instance of deer headed human forms prancing about though there are cobra headed humans which represent not a shamanistic form but a race of people called the Nagas (Cobra).

Another feature of interest is that the quillon heads are facing different directions - one towards the point and the other towards the pommel. This too is not found in any Sinhalese swords I have examined and to me appears a distinct European feature. May be Jim can help here.

The wooden hilt with the wooden quillons is also curious. The quillons would certainly not serve its purpose not being of stout enough construction. I do not have the 'Price Guide" and 'Swords and Hilt Weapons'. Do they give the origin of the similar swords as Ceylon and in these words are the quillons also fashioned out of Ivory? Could this be an attempt at someone recreating a damaged hilt? The wood appears closer to rosewood of India?

Jim has a comment on a 'star' design. In fact the Dutch heraldry also has the combination of the four dots and star (probably a four petalled flower) as given in the illustration from a Design of a seal proposed for the Raad van Justitie of Colombo in 1666. Note the quillons facing different directions.

Mark - could you post a photograph of the entire sword? I am curious to know what the curvature and the point look like. Also what is the arm wrapped round the lion's waist? I am not getting a full picture of what is on the hilt and the guard.

Sorry for raising more questions than answers on this.

Regards.

M ELEY · 30th March 2010, 01:43 PM

Hello Anandalal,

I'll have to take a shot of the whole blade as soon as I get a chance. The blade is just like a falchion's, swelling toward the point and then coming to the typical edge. I still feel Cornelis has nailed this one on the head, being of Singhalese origin where it possesses just enough of the kastane's features to show its origins while pointing to a weapon for export to the Dutch market. The sword mentioned in the previous volumes is a hanger with fine ivory hilt in this exact pattern, only much more detailed. It was listed as Singhalese and made probably for the Dutch EIC, although the pic doesn't show any marking to stake this theory of company use down concretely.

The heraldry you list does indeed show patterns of diamond-like dots and as seen on the dump coin, they used this pattern as found on my sword. My personal opinion as to the origin of this cross-like pattern of diamonds is that it goes back to the early Ceylon empire and the maneless lion coin I mention above dating to 200 A.D. Perhaps when the Shri Lanken people began creating the lion-hilt swords, they remembered their ancient lion coins and it's symbol, placing it here.(As both you and Jim pointed out, they had a great fondness for the lion in their culture). Later, as the Dutch produced coins and later swords, they might have adapted this early marking. This isn't too much of a stretch as Jim pointed out that the stuvier also has what appears to be possible Tamil or Singhalese symbols. Just a theory, but it could fit. In any case, I feel mid/late 17th c. Perhaps mine was an early native model for the later prized copies or was made after them in appreciation for their patterning.

27th March 2010, 09:40 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	lion hilt HI, there was a development in Holland of a very interesting type of cross hilts in the middle of the 17thC the so called "leeuwengevesten"or lionhilt. on those Hilts the Lion takes most of the space of the hilt. such a hilt can be seen on the town guard of Hoorn painting of Jan Albertsz. Rotius made in 1655. In the same time Golden Lion hilts were given to fleet owners for their duties by the VOC of Amsterdam. unfortunately we only know them now from paintings and no existing sample is known. later the German sculper Goottfried Leygebe made also a lionhilt however the development on Holland was before his work. now the sword of mark is a wooden? carving probably Dutch and made in one of its colonies or on the way to one of them. the original of this wooden hilt, where a lion is attacked by four dogs is the same as on the painting of Rotius, in casted silver is laying in the tower of London.IX-849. Mark, your sword is an interesting piece of Dutch history, I would love to have one like this. best regards from Holland Attached Images

30th March 2010, 02:04 AM	#6
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Dear Mark, Your sword is indeed a very interesting one. Sources clearly point to the Kastane Sword in the final form - lion head pommel, monster quillons etc., being found in the Dutch Period of Ceylon's history [mid 17th century to the late 18th century] as a sword denoting rank or authority. The British period comes thereafter and continued till the mid 20th century. The lion form has significance to the Sinhalese people and has been utilized in their art, including in the Kastana hilt. However, the form that is found on your sword hilt is not one that I have come across so far. Particularly the form of half lion, half human - probably a shamanistic form where the human merges with the spirit of the lion in a trance state - could not be traced in Sinhalese art. Although shamanistic practices are still found in the country; with the influence of Buddhism such practices have moved away from the mainstream. Thus shamanistic art is rare in Ceylon. I am aware of one instance of deer headed human forms prancing about though there are cobra headed humans which represent not a shamanistic form but a race of people called the Nagas (Cobra). Another feature of interest is that the quillon heads are facing different directions - one towards the point and the other towards the pommel. This too is not found in any Sinhalese swords I have examined and to me appears a distinct European feature. May be Jim can help here. The wooden hilt with the wooden quillons is also curious. The quillons would certainly not serve its purpose not being of stout enough construction. I do not have the 'Price Guide" and 'Swords and Hilt Weapons'. Do they give the origin of the similar swords as Ceylon and in these words are the quillons also fashioned out of Ivory? Could this be an attempt at someone recreating a damaged hilt? The wood appears closer to rosewood of India? Jim has a comment on a 'star' design. In fact the Dutch heraldry also has the combination of the four dots and star (probably a four petalled flower) as given in the illustration from a Design of a seal proposed for the Raad van Justitie of Colombo in 1666. Note the quillons facing different directions. Mark - could you post a photograph of the entire sword? I am curious to know what the curvature and the point look like. Also what is the arm wrapped round the lion's waist? I am not getting a full picture of what is on the hilt and the guard. Sorry for raising more questions than answers on this. Regards. Attached Images

27th March 2010, 06:55 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, Thank you for the kind words, and as I noted, I was pretty much following your lead, and since I had heard of these coins before just revisited that data. It was great to find that exact pattern on the coin....I recall in some earlier discussion on smallswords there was a star type configuration on some Dutch sword blades in this same manner. I am wondering if the native armourers were simply applying this mark in the same sense they might have perceived those. It seems that these type swords were produced as early as the previous century for merchants and traders as essentially status symbols, although they were obviously with ivory, horn and in some cases possibly crystal. Some of these decorative swords were probably diplomatic gifts, and there were makers in the central regions who produced lavish weapons for the Kandy rulers in earlier times. Since this is carved wood, I would suspect it is an item produced in about the period suggested c.1800-20 as British rule took over, and probably intended for trade market. Carved wood seems to suggest native production although unusual for weapons as an accoutrement in official use. In Southern India after the defeat of Tipu Sultan in 1799, there was brisk production of weapons produced in 'Tipu's Mysori style compounded with British form intended for British officers and presentations to local officials and military. Some of these had brass hilts with Tipu style features along with the British military M1796 pattern. Perhaps this type circumstance existed in Ceylon in the same way. It would really be interesting to hear opinions from Anandalal, Olikara and Cornelis with thier direct connections to this historical environment. In any case, always fun to work with you on these mysteries All the best, Jim

27th March 2010, 02:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent!!! There we have it! Cornelis thank you so much for coming in on this, and I was sure you have have some well placed insight into a weapon of this intriguing nature with such apparantly profound Dutch history connection. With this information it does seem that this cross hilt weapon was most likely contemporary with the type Mark has noted in "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (c.1660) and probably carved in the colonies. The connection to the four dot configuration on the blade, while seen on the one stuiver coins of the latter part of the 18th century, while associating this sword with the VOC sphere, cannot be construed as setting the date of the weapon in that period as this symbolic arrangement must have been present earlier. Cornelis, do you have thoughts or information on what the four dot rosette might signify? Thank you again for this information, and it is truly exciting to see yet another 'mystery' sword turn out to be an important item of this fascinating part of Dutch history. All very best regards, Jim

27th March 2010, 07:59 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Jim, my pleasure I think the dots only represent "the cross", usually on voc swords the date is placed between 2 of those dot crosses. best regards

27th March 2010, 10:14 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	A profound 'thank you', Cornelis and Jim for your valuable input on this sword. Its origin has been troubling me for over a decade and now I can finally see a clear picture of its history. Of course, I couldn't be more happier, as a colony piece such as this very likely could have seen sea service. Again, I can't thank you enough for solving this mystery! Cheers! Mark

30th March 2010, 01:43 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	Hello Anandalal, I'll have to take a shot of the whole blade as soon as I get a chance. The blade is just like a falchion's, swelling toward the point and then coming to the typical edge. I still feel Cornelis has nailed this one on the head, being of Singhalese origin where it possesses just enough of the kastane's features to show its origins while pointing to a weapon for export to the Dutch market. The sword mentioned in the previous volumes is a hanger with fine ivory hilt in this exact pattern, only much more detailed. It was listed as Singhalese and made probably for the Dutch EIC, although the pic doesn't show any marking to stake this theory of company use down concretely. The heraldry you list does indeed show patterns of diamond-like dots and as seen on the dump coin, they used this pattern as found on my sword. My personal opinion as to the origin of this cross-like pattern of diamonds is that it goes back to the early Ceylon empire and the maneless lion coin I mention above dating to 200 A.D. Perhaps when the Shri Lanken people began creating the lion-hilt swords, they remembered their ancient lion coins and it's symbol, placing it here.(As both you and Jim pointed out, they had a great fondness for the lion in their culture). Later, as the Dutch produced coins and later swords, they might have adapted this early marking. This isn't too much of a stretch as Jim pointed out that the stuvier also has what appears to be possible Tamil or Singhalese symbols. Just a theory, but it could fit. In any case, I feel mid/late 17th c. Perhaps mine was an early native model for the later prized copies or was made after them in appreciation for their patterning.