keris melayu for comment

[Alam Shah]

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

[hanggoye]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

hye alam shah,

thanx for your comment and i know you have seen this blade at my friend site in multiply..i just want him to put this for discussion since i don't have acc anymore..

i dont know either this is original sheath or not but the blade is sits well in this sheath.. i will pos the pic as request after this...

tq alam shah dropping the comment here...

regards

[hanggoye]

more picture for this keris

[BluErf]

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

[hanggoye]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by hanggoye

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

Akar bahar is black coral. Very precious material for keris hilt. hmmm... too bad he wouldn't sell the pendoko. The 2 will really make a statement together.

[khalifah muda]

Akar bahar in White or Red or Black?
FYI, In english would be White Coral or Black Coral or Red Coral.

Both Kelantanese or Pattani do use this media for making hilts. But it is often to see Kelantan pieces with coral hilts.

Originally Posted by hanggoye

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

[David]

Originally Posted by khalifah muda

Akar bahar in White or Red or Black?
FYI, In english would be White Coral or Black Coral or Red Coral.
Both Kelantanese or Pattani do use this media for making hilts. But it is often to see Kelantan pieces with coral hilts.

Often? Really? Does this mean that you have numerous examples to show us?

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

Could the hilt being with this blade really help to nail the origin of the blade if we have no provenance that the hilt is original to the blade?

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by David

Could the hilt being with this blade really help to nail the origin of the blade if we have no provenance that the hilt is original to the blade?

Well, we live with uncertainty in the world of keris collecting

The hilt does help a bit. If the hilt goes with the sheath, it would be easier to help with identification. If the hilt is obviously not fitting or appropriate, then we would have to discount it. A lot of ifs actually.

[BluErf]

Sorry to be a bother, but can we see the front of the sampir please. tks!

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?
My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...
Does the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"?
I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Ganja, this is a good question that i have often wonder about as i discovered some time ago that a Javanese carita bears little characteristic similarities with the Peninsula form of the same name.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?

Dear pak Jimmy,

I don't think the question is stupid. I've though of it as well. I do not feel that it's the same as the javanese dapur Carita. When mentioned as keris cherita (carita/cerita), in Malay context, it meant a Peninsular piece with shallow fullers.. normally in a straight blade configuration of the Peninsular variety. However, there are contentions, from the various school of thoughts. For a book on Peninsular Kerises, you can refer to my site, Rahsia Keris Melayu. The book is written in Malay.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...

In my post, I indicate cherita (cerita/carita) not as a dapur. I indicated as "a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani". In malay language of the Peninsular, there are various accents, the use of the brackets is to indicate alternative spelling and pronunciation. I'm aware of the various carita dapurs you mentioned. That is not what I meant.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"? I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

Unfortunately, I do not have enough knowledge to be certain if it does or does not have relation. However, the loose translation of cherita is, 'a blade with a story'.. I suppose, in the Peninsular, the term is loosely used refering to a variety of blades regardless of luks, unlike in Java, where it is strictly adhered to, a dapur form in pakem. I hope that gives you some clarity with my statement.

[PenangsangII]

Ultimately, when naming a pamor or dapur or whatever with respect to the keris, it must have to have certain meaning, the philosophy behind a name...
I believe Javanese terminology such as Charita has its philosophy why it is named as such....

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

Then, Penangsang, could you guarantee -- that the hilt being with the blade, is the "original" hilt. Or who could guarantee? And what happened if -- for instance -- you got a Bugis blade which geographically could be a couple thousand kilometers away from you in Sulawesi, then you dressed it for your purpose locally where you belong to now -- and you dressed the blade as a Terengganu dress, for instance? Or Kelantanese dress or Javanese, Cirebonese dress. Can you nail it as a Terengganu, or Kelantan keris, a Javanese keris, a Cirebonese keris?

GANJAWULUNG