Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

TVV · 27th May 2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I'm really surprised to see such "caucasian" models being worn by greeks, bolgarians and other balkan nationals.
The reason being that I don't remember straight kindjals being popular among ottoman forces, I always thought they actually started to appear more towards the end of XIX century (there are probably 6 million circassians in Turkey today, so this is being one of the most important reasons).

I'm also surprized to read that circassians left an imprint on bolgarian society - I always thought that anti-circassian feelings were prevalent among balkan nations.

Are there any shashkas in Bolgaria ?

Rivkin, you are right in believing that Circassians were not welcomed by Bulgarians in a period of rising nationalism and liberation struggles, as they were brought to the Balkans to strengthen Ottoman authority, and they indeed acted as irregulars in the Ottoman army. However, Bulgarians in those times were fond of Cossacks, whom they associated with the Russians, and at the end it was Russia that brought liberation to Bulgaria after almost five centuries under the Ottomans. Therefore, kindjals and qamas may have not necessarily been associated with the Circassians only, but with the Cossacks too.
I also think that Christian outlaws and revolutionaries did not care that much about the origin of their weapons, as I have seen pictures of Bulgarian revolutionaries with kilidjes, yataghans and kindjals. As weapons were not that easy to obtain even for the ones residing outside of the Ottoman Empire, in Wallachia for example, I guess any good weapon would be used by them.
As far as shashkas, there are shashkas in Bulgaria, but not so many of Caucasus origin. They came into Bulgaria mainly through Bulgarian revolutionaries who excaped to Russia and lived and/or studied there. Some came with the Cossack regiments during the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78. In the years immediately following the liberation there were many Russian officers stationed in Bulgaria, as the young Bulgarian state did not have its own officers. In the war of 1885 with Serbia, there was no official sword pattern in Bulgaria and Bulgarian officers and cavalry used the Russian shashka patterns. Many shashkas, mainly of the dragoon pattern were captured during WWI in the Eastern theater. As a result, there are plenty of shashkas in Bulgaria, but most of them are military issue ones, and not so many are what we would consider ethnographic.

erlikhan · 27th May 2005, 09:23 PM

Rivkin,there are enormous number of nice silver scabbarded kindjals currently in Turkish market but all came after 1990. Before, kindjals were rare and sold for a few thousand dollars each, still being brought illegally from Soviets. I havent seen any quality sample originating from Turkey. Only very simple and quiet Turkified ones. So I think Cirkassians, Chechens etc. didnt continue their tribal arts in Turkey and they didnt in Balkans as well. Not strange?
But still, I have a shashka,which has Ottoman tughra on each silver piece, and the scratches done by the Istanbul mint office to take sample and test its grade upon the producer's wish to gain customer trust. it must show, 1- this shashka was produced before 1850's, when most part of Caucassia was Ottoman soil or under their influence or 2- it was produced for or by local Caucassians here after they migrated to Turkey. Post occupation Caucassian arms carry Russian mint stamps instead, not?The fullers look like the ones made by more developed tools of late 19th-early 20th c to me, and I would like to see your opinions.

Rivkin · 28th May 2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Rivkin,there are enormous number of nice silver scabbarded kindjals currently in Turkish market but all came after 1990. Before, kindjals were rare and sold for a few thousand dollars each, still being brought illegally from Soviets. I havent seen any quality sample originating from Turkey. Only very simple and quiet Turkified ones. So I think Cirkassians, Chechens etc. didnt continue their tribal arts in Turkey and they didnt in Balkans as well. Not strange?

By 1850 Circassians were pushed out of kindjal market by dagestan, so it's not a big surprise that circassian production of kindjals was insignificant. There were very few chechens among muhajars.

I've seen quite a lot kindjals that looked turkish to me - mostly with coralls in the hilt. However, I thought that kindjals like this one are also Turkish ?
http://www.buyit-sellit.com/image.ph...icture=59028-3

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

But still, I have a shashka,which has Ottoman tughra on each silver piece, and the scratches done by the Istanbul mint office to take sample and test its grade upon the producer's wish to gain customer trust. it must show, 1- this shashka was produced before 1850's, when most part of Caucassia was Ottoman soil or under their influence or 2- it was produced for or by local Caucassians here after they migrated to Turkey. Post occupation Caucassian arms carry Russian mint stamps instead, not?The fullers look like the ones made by more developed tools of late 19th-early 20th c to me, and I would like to see your opinions.

Very interesting sword. I'm not a shashka person, but I would try to make an opinion, but I need photographs: the hilt, koftgari on bith sides of the blade, niello on the scabbard.

erlikhan · 28th May 2005, 11:57 PM

Rivkin, the one you show is pure Turkish. Classical hilt form. Several cities in Turkey had kindjal production and special models. Azeris had kindjals too. Coral was mostly preferred by eastern Turkey and Azerbaijan. I meant the samples from local Circassian villages as being simple and Turked ,not all kindjals. http://www.pbase.com/erlik1453/inbox . You can see other pictures except tughras in this link. Can you guess which tribe it is?

Rivkin · 29th May 2005, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Rivkin, the one you show is pure Turkish. Classical hilt form. Several cities in Turkey had kindjal production and special models. Azeris had kindjals too. Coral was mostly preferred by eastern Turkey and Azerbaijan. I meant the samples from local Circassian villages as being simple and Turked ,not all kindjals. http://www.pbase.com/erlik1453/inbox . You can see other pictures except tughras in this link. Can you guess which tribe it is?

Interesting shashka. Now I probably should not say anything, because I _don't_ collect shashkas (and there are people here who do), but this one looks to me as a circassian. The niello is a little bit like dagestani, but not a classical dagestani, and the density of all those leaves and branches is much smaller than it should be for a dagestani ornament. I would vote for circassia, and this one is quite a rare item - unusual fullers etc.

TVV · 8th August 2005, 02:28 PM

Reviving this old thread, here are two qamas I recently acquired in Bulgaria. The small one to my knowledge dates back to the early 20th century, maybe even the end of the 19th century. It is of a type known as a "bachelor's qama", as it was worn by unmarried young men after they became 16. This was of course only possible after 1878, for bfore this date Christians were not allowed to carry weapons that openly.
The big one is a replica, and I am posting it here only to confirm if I am right in assuming it is of a typical Turkish type, based on blade shape and scabbard decoration. It is a well made replica I bought for a little less than $50, and perhaps something to watch out for on eBay in the near future, as with the current prices for qamas and kindjals one can only wonder how long it will take for copies such as this one to turn up there, offered as authentic, of course.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2005, 05:54 PM

Although I have nothing to add to this thread at the moment, I just wanted to say that in reviewing this thread and the excellent information and contributions this has been an exciting learning experience!
The weapons of these regions have always been as noted, superficially classified as 'Ottoman' or 'Balkan' at best, and it is fascinating to see the constructive observations shared here. I also admire the very courteous and professional tone of the discussion.
Thank you very much gentlemen, and especially you Teodor for opening this thread and the outstanding manner with which you presented these weapons.You opened with objective statements, and presented important data supporting them as well as your own observations on the weapons.

Nicely done

All best regards,
Jim

27th May 2005, 09:23 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin,there are enormous number of nice silver scabbarded kindjals currently in Turkish market but all came after 1990. Before, kindjals were rare and sold for a few thousand dollars each, still being brought illegally from Soviets. I havent seen any quality sample originating from Turkey. Only very simple and quiet Turkified ones. So I think Cirkassians, Chechens etc. didnt continue their tribal arts in Turkey and they didnt in Balkans as well. Not strange? But still, I have a shashka,which has Ottoman tughra on each silver piece, and the scratches done by the Istanbul mint office to take sample and test its grade upon the producer's wish to gain customer trust. it must show, 1- this shashka was produced before 1850's, when most part of Caucassia was Ottoman soil or under their influence or 2- it was produced for or by local Caucassians here after they migrated to Turkey. Post occupation Caucassian arms carry Russian mint stamps instead, not?The fullers look like the ones made by more developed tools of late 19th-early 20th c to me, and I would like to see your opinions. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 27th May 2005 at 10:06 PM.

8th August 2005, 02:28 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Reviving this old thread, here are two qamas I recently acquired in Bulgaria. The small one to my knowledge dates back to the early 20th century, maybe even the end of the 19th century. It is of a type known as a "bachelor's qama", as it was worn by unmarried young men after they became 16. This was of course only possible after 1878, for bfore this date Christians were not allowed to carry weapons that openly. The big one is a replica, and I am posting it here only to confirm if I am right in assuming it is of a typical Turkish type, based on blade shape and scabbard decoration. It is a well made replica I bought for a little less than $50, and perhaps something to watch out for on eBay in the near future, as with the current prices for qamas and kindjals one can only wonder how long it will take for copies such as this one to turn up there, offered as authentic, of course. Attached Images

28th May 2005, 11:57 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, the one you show is pure Turkish. Classical hilt form. Several cities in Turkey had kindjal production and special models. Azeris had kindjals too. Coral was mostly preferred by eastern Turkey and Azerbaijan. I meant the samples from local Circassian villages as being simple and Turked ,not all kindjals. http://www.pbase.com/erlik1453/inbox . You can see other pictures except tughras in this link. Can you guess which tribe it is?

8th August 2005, 05:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Although I have nothing to add to this thread at the moment, I just wanted to say that in reviewing this thread and the excellent information and contributions this has been an exciting learning experience! The weapons of these regions have always been as noted, superficially classified as 'Ottoman' or 'Balkan' at best, and it is fascinating to see the constructive observations shared here. I also admire the very courteous and professional tone of the discussion. Thank you very much gentlemen, and especially you Teodor for opening this thread and the outstanding manner with which you presented these weapons.You opened with objective statements, and presented important data supporting them as well as your own observations on the weapons. Nicely done All best regards, Jim