Malay (?) keris from Ebay

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2010, 05:15 AM

Thanks for your input on this Kai Wee.

The reason I mentioned Singapore is because I've seen a lot of newly made pendongkok of this style used on keris that were supposedly assembled in Singapore.

Of course, I cannot know where it was put together, I can only draw on my limited experience and knowledge in this area and draw conclusions.

These conclusions can always be wrong. One of the reasons why I don't like theorising, you can finish up with egg all over your face.

Still, for me, there is really only one issue here, and that is blade origin.

If I took this blade and mixed it with a couple of hundred current era Madura blades, neither I, nor any other person who is familiar with the keris trade in Jawa, would or could distinguish this blade from the rest of the Madura blades. It would fit right in with the rest of the blades, and become invisible.

I know for a fact that since the late 1980's Madura makers have produced Bugis and Peninsula style blades both on a speculative basis and on a special order basis. The ones I have seen that were produced on special order were faultless in respect of form, only the difference in material and working technique/ presentation, gave them away.

The horn addition to the wrongko is a recent practice, it is not possible unless modern glues are used, and I have seen several keris fitted to wrongkos with this addition that did originate in Singapore.

I'm probably wrong, but from where I sit, using only that which I know to be true, and lacking the detailed knowledge of you and Dave, and some other people, this keris says "Singapore" to me, even though it is stylistically N.E. Peninsula.

In respect of the hilt, quite frankly, I am uncertain where this hilt originates. I've seen various attributions in published works, you tell me its classic Trengganu. I had an email and a phone call just this morning from two people whose opinions I must respect who gave two different locations for origin. All the hilts using this motif, but in marginally different interpretations, that I have handled, were Madura.

I'm prepared to believe anything that anybody tells me in respect of this hilt origin, until there is some really solid evidence that nails origin to one particular geographic location.

But for the purposes of discussion in this thread, lets just accept that it is classic Trengganu.

In respect of the pamor.

You tell me that to you it looks N. Malay.

I cannot argue with that, but to me it looks absolutely classic current era Madura. Maybe if I had it in my hand I could note differences that would tell me it was not CE Madura, but working only on the published images, this blade would disappear if mixed with a number of other similar Madura blades.

And CE Madura blades are present in quite a lot of recently put together keris that have been presented as old and original Peninsula.

BluErf · 14th March 2010, 06:50 AM

This thread is interesting. Reminds me of the Malaysia-Indonesia dispute over who invented certain common food recipe.

I think cultural, political and trade cross-links in this archipelago can make things really confusing after a while.

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2010, 07:43 AM

I couldn't agree more, Kai Wee.

When you read the history of the empus (Silsilah Empu Tanah Jawa) you find mention of various of them wandering all over the place.

Then you've got all those Bugis traders and the people they carried with them, including Australian Aboriginal people back to Sulawesi.

Then there's the trade that from Majapahit times reached as far as Southern India.

The modern country borders are a false construct. I personally like to think of this entire area as maritime south east Asia.

David · 14th March 2010, 08:48 AM

Well, you all probably know that i don't tend to post images of my blades on this forum all too often, but this question really is interesting to me and i feel the need to post this one to help us reach a better understanding on this subject. I have always assumed that this blade was from the peninsula. The man i got it from is an old collector who collected it many years back, i believe in the late 60s or early 70s. It indeed has topographical relief, though not as pronounced as this first example. I did not photograph it to excentuate the relief, but i think you can see it clearly in the photos.
So what do we all think the origin of this keris is? Peninsula or Madura?

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2010, 09:30 AM

Not at all like any Madura blade I've ever seen, David, also the cross section is Bugis.Pamor is not Madura in either construction or execution.

I do not know exactly where it is from, but in my experience, not Madura.

BluErf · 14th March 2010, 12:35 PM

This has to be Terengganu. All parts of it.

Almost a brother to one of my kerises, except that the blade is a sepokal.

Gustav · 14th March 2010, 01:22 PM

just for comparison.

14th March 2010, 08:48 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Well, you all probably know that i don't tend to post images of my blades on this forum all too often, but this question really is interesting to me and i feel the need to post this one to help us reach a better understanding on this subject. I have always assumed that this blade was from the peninsula. The man i got it from is an old collector who collected it many years back, i believe in the late 60s or early 70s. It indeed has topographical relief, though not as pronounced as this first example. I did not photograph it to excentuate the relief, but i think you can see it clearly in the photos. So what do we all think the origin of this keris is? Peninsula or Madura? Attached Images

14th March 2010, 01:22 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	just for comparison. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 14th March 2010 at 09:06 PM.

14th March 2010, 05:15 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thanks for your input on this Kai Wee. The reason I mentioned Singapore is because I've seen a lot of newly made pendongkok of this style used on keris that were supposedly assembled in Singapore. Of course, I cannot know where it was put together, I can only draw on my limited experience and knowledge in this area and draw conclusions. These conclusions can always be wrong. One of the reasons why I don't like theorising, you can finish up with egg all over your face. Still, for me, there is really only one issue here, and that is blade origin. If I took this blade and mixed it with a couple of hundred current era Madura blades, neither I, nor any other person who is familiar with the keris trade in Jawa, would or could distinguish this blade from the rest of the Madura blades. It would fit right in with the rest of the blades, and become invisible. I know for a fact that since the late 1980's Madura makers have produced Bugis and Peninsula style blades both on a speculative basis and on a special order basis. The ones I have seen that were produced on special order were faultless in respect of form, only the difference in material and working technique/ presentation, gave them away. The horn addition to the wrongko is a recent practice, it is not possible unless modern glues are used, and I have seen several keris fitted to wrongkos with this addition that did originate in Singapore. I'm probably wrong, but from where I sit, using only that which I know to be true, and lacking the detailed knowledge of you and Dave, and some other people, this keris says "Singapore" to me, even though it is stylistically N.E. Peninsula. In respect of the hilt, quite frankly, I am uncertain where this hilt originates. I've seen various attributions in published works, you tell me its classic Trengganu. I had an email and a phone call just this morning from two people whose opinions I must respect who gave two different locations for origin. All the hilts using this motif, but in marginally different interpretations, that I have handled, were Madura. I'm prepared to believe anything that anybody tells me in respect of this hilt origin, until there is some really solid evidence that nails origin to one particular geographic location. But for the purposes of discussion in this thread, lets just accept that it is classic Trengganu. In respect of the pamor. You tell me that to you it looks N. Malay. I cannot argue with that, but to me it looks absolutely classic current era Madura. Maybe if I had it in my hand I could note differences that would tell me it was not CE Madura, but working only on the published images, this blade would disappear if mixed with a number of other similar Madura blades. And CE Madura blades are present in quite a lot of recently put together keris that have been presented as old and original Peninsula.

14th March 2010, 06:50 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	This thread is interesting. Reminds me of the Malaysia-Indonesia dispute over who invented certain common food recipe. I think cultural, political and trade cross-links in this archipelago can make things really confusing after a while.

14th March 2010, 07:43 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I couldn't agree more, Kai Wee. When you read the history of the empus (Silsilah Empu Tanah Jawa) you find mention of various of them wandering all over the place. Then you've got all those Bugis traders and the people they carried with them, including Australian Aboriginal people back to Sulawesi. Then there's the trade that from Majapahit times reached as far as Southern India. The modern country borders are a false construct. I personally like to think of this entire area as maritime south east Asia.

14th March 2010, 09:30 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Not at all like any Madura blade I've ever seen, David, also the cross section is Bugis.Pamor is not Madura in either construction or execution. I do not know exactly where it is from, but in my experience, not Madura.

14th March 2010, 12:35 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	This has to be Terengganu. All parts of it. Almost a brother to one of my kerises, except that the blade is a sepokal.