For those who love African swords

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2010, 04:28 AM

Guys,

I have been looking a lot deeper in to these swords and as yet I can not find any native blades of genuine antiquity. All pre 1900 examples thus far seem to be European trade blades.
Can anyone point me to any in museums or personal collections that may house native made blades within this type of dress?

Thanks

Gav

Lew · 9th March 2010, 05:29 AM

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 29th March 2010, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

G'day Lew.

My understanding is that these swords with European blades, whilst most likely used for real fighting and up for the job, were actually used as a status symbol and as dress swords to show high status and wealth, I guess untimately this is "show" sword...

That being said, this to me wouldn't place a native blade in the "show" category.

Did native blades of antiquity exist in these regions?

Thoughts?

Gav

Lew · 29th March 2010, 04:45 PM

Gav

North Africa and West Africa have been influenced by the Arabs and then the Europeans going back over 500 yrs so I really can't say if ther were any actual native sword blades? I just think the native blades were copies of European blades? You do have the shotel which is a native design but the saber types were of European origins.

Btw
What I meant by native blades for show is the hilt and scabbard were made for visual appeal (status) but the thin blade had no real combat use.

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2010, 08:20 PM

In support of the native thin blade. The Dha benefits from just a touch more weight but only a touch. But much more sophisticated fullering adding a little stiffness, there is very little discernible difference in temper. The Dha is also balanced for a faster close quarter combat but essentially the blades are very similar. Like not judging a book by its cover.

Lew · 31st March 2010, 02:41 PM

Tim

Thickness of the steel is not everything one must take into account the type of steel being used and the heat treatment used on the steel. I'm sure the African piece shown is functional but I can see some warping from the top view the finish of the blade is pretty rough and I am wondering if it has a springy blade? If I was going into a combat situation I would still want my sword to have a 19th century European saber blade rather than a reground machete blade or one made from some mystery steel.

Tim Simmons · 25th April 2010, 08:23 PM

I have just ordered a copy of-

Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate: Historical and Sociological Perspectives. Cambridge university.

-from an inspiring extract I was able to glean that in the 19th century the adoption of cavalry was a revolutionary tactic. From that one might assume that the short form is the more original version? Like the picture of the Dha an infantry weapon. Until I have the book I will suggest that the French blade may well be a late adoption.

The extract at the bottom of this link might also throw some light on the short version.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/182766

9th March 2010, 04:28 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Looking Guys, I have been looking a lot deeper in to these swords and as yet I can not find any native blades of genuine antiquity. All pre 1900 examples thus far seem to be European trade blades. Can anyone point me to any in museums or personal collections that may house native made blades within this type of dress? Thanks Gav Last edited by freebooter; 9th March 2010 at 04:41 AM.

29th March 2010, 08:20 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	In support of the native thin blade. The Dha benefits from just a touch more weight but only a touch. But much more sophisticated fullering adding a little stiffness, there is very little discernible difference in temper. The Dha is also balanced for a faster close quarter combat but essentially the blades are very similar. Like not judging a book by its cover. Attached Images

25th April 2010, 08:23 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	I have just ordered a copy of- Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate: Historical and Sociological Perspectives. Cambridge university. -from an inspiring extract I was able to glean that in the 19th century the adoption of cavalry was a revolutionary tactic. From that one might assume that the short form is the more original version? Like the picture of the Dha an infantry weapon. Until I have the book I will suggest that the French blade may well be a late adoption. The extract at the bottom of this link might also throw some light on the short version. http://www.jstor.org/pss/182766 Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th April 2010 at 08:52 PM.

9th March 2010, 05:29 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why. Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show. Lew

29th March 2010, 04:45 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav North Africa and West Africa have been influenced by the Arabs and then the Europeans going back over 500 yrs so I really can't say if ther were any actual native sword blades? I just think the native blades were copies of European blades? You do have the shotel which is a native design but the saber types were of European origins. Btw What I meant by native blades for show is the hilt and scabbard were made for visual appeal (status) but the thin blade had no real combat use.

31st March 2010, 02:41 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim Thickness of the steel is not everything one must take into account the type of steel being used and the heat treatment used on the steel. I'm sure the African piece shown is functional but I can see some warping from the top view the finish of the blade is pretty rough and I am wondering if it has a springy blade? If I was going into a combat situation I would still want my sword to have a 19th century European saber blade rather than a reground machete blade or one made from some mystery steel.