shark tooth weapon.

fearn · 8th March 2010, 07:19 PM

Hi Chregu,

You could be right. See URL=http://www.trussel.com/kir/less01.htm]link to Kiribati language[/URL] . Thanks for spotting that. I took the names in the illustration at face value (it's from an old ethnographic report I checked out of the library many years ago), but it looks like rere is in the dictionary I linked to, but tetoanea is not. Learned something new!

Best,

F

VANDOO · 27th July 2010, 06:39 PM

I JUST CAME ACROSS THIS OLD PICTURE OF THE WAY FIGHTS WERE SET UP IN THE MARSHALL ISLANDS IN THE OLD DAYS. NOTE SOME HAD THE HEAVY FIBER ARMOR AND OTHERS DID NOT, ALSO NOTE THE LEGNTH OF THE WEAPONS. ONE OF THE WEAPONS APPEARS TO HAVE THE DOUBBLE SHORTER GAURDS GIVING IT THREE POINTS KIND OF LIKE A BIG TRIDENT. I DON'T HAVE THE SOFTWARE TO CLEAN UP THE PHOTO SO IF ANYONE ELSE DOES FEEL FREE TO IMPROVE IT.

I CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE THE SHARK TEETH BUT SUSPECT THEY ARE THERE.

fearn · 28th July 2010, 12:00 AM

Hi Vandoo,

Is that Marshalls, or Kiribati (Gilberts)? I thought that sennit armor was unique to Kiribati.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 28th July 2010, 01:34 AM

THOSE ARE ALL THE VARIOUS NAMES FOR THE SAME ISLANDS OVER TIME. KIRABATI IS THE LATEST NAME FOR THEM THESE PICTURES WOULD HAVE DATED FROM THE MARSHALL OR KINGSMILL DAYS.

fearn · 28th July 2010, 04:20 AM

I'm pretty sure the Marshall Islands (currently Republic of the Marshall Islands) isn't the same as Kiribati (currently Republic of Kiribati). In I-Kiribati, "ti" is pronounced "s", and if you say the name, I think you can hear that Kiribati is a transliteration of "Gilbert." (Kiribas).

I'd love to see some spears from the Marshall Islands, though.

Best,

F

josh stout · 28th July 2010, 03:45 PM

I am always impressed with the depth of knowledge here. As mentioned, the white tipped reef shark is a good possibility because it is common in shallow waters; however, the teeth should have two small points on either side of the large tooth. The other species given as a possibility, the bull shark has teeth that match much better. The genus Carcharhinus (whaler sharks) has over 50 species, all with similar teeth to the ones on the dagger. Bull sharks are a member of the genus, are fairly common, and feed in shallow waters. Also, they have a reputation as man-eaters and therefore would be an excellent candidate for magical reasons as well.
Josh

VANDOO · 28th July 2010, 03:58 PM

KIRIBATI IS A GROUP OF ISLANDS NORTH OF TODAYS MARSHALL ISLANDS AND TODAY THAY ARE CONSIDERED DIFFERENT GROUPS AND NATIONS. PERHAPS IN THE PAST THEY WERE ALL GROUPED TOGETHER BY EUROPEANS??? HOW WIDE SPREAD THIS ARMOR AND WEAPON WAS THRUOUT MICRONESIA I DO NOT KNOW.
AT ANY RATE I HAVE SEEN THE WEAPONS AND ARMOR LISTED OVER THE YEARS AS FROM THE MARSHALL ISLANDS, KINGSMILL ISLANDS ,GILBERT ISLANDS AND MORE RECENTLY AS KIRABATI. AS TO WEATHER THE ARMOR OR SPECIFIC TYPES OF SHARK TOOTH WEAPONS WERE DIFFERENT ON EACH ISLAND OR GROUP OF ISLANDS I HAVE NO REFRENCES TO FIND OUT. I SUSPECT THERE WERE VARIATIONS PERHAPS BASED ON THE TRIBE OR INDIVIDUAL FAMILY DESIGNS (NOTE THE DIFFERENCES IN THE DESIGN OF THE ARMOR ESPECIALLY THE BACK/ HEAD GUARDS IN THE ABOVE PICTURE) NOTE ALSO THE TWO INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT FULL ARMOR DO HAVE A PROTECTIVE GIRDLE AND GRASS SKIRT.
THESE CHEST AND BELLY GIRDLES ARE ALSO USED IN NEW GUINEA AND SOME OF THE ISLANDS IN THE REGION. SHARK TOOTH WEAPONS ARE USED IN NEW GUINEA AND HAWAII AS WELL. I STILL SUSPECT THIS WAS CEREMONIAL COMBAT NOT OPEN WAR. ON AN ISLAND WAR AS THE EUROPEANS PRACTICED IT DID NOT MAKE SENSE AS IF EVERYTHING WAS DESTROYED OFTEN EVERYONE PERISHED. THE RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT ARE IN A DELICATE BALANCE ON AN ISLAND AND IF YOU FOUL YOUR NEST THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO. THE FACE OFF IN THE PICTURE APPEARS TO BE KIND OF LIKE A DUEL WITH THE TWO WARRIORS AND THEIR SECONDS. AT ANY RATE THE TWO GROUPS INVOLVED ARE THERE TO CHEER THEIR TEAM ON AND PERHAPS IT DECIDED WHO GOT TO HARVEST THE COCONUTS IN A CERTAN PRIME PART OF THE ISLAND THAT YEAR OR SOME OTHER THING. THIS WOULD MAKE SENSE AS IT WAS JUST COMPETICIAN AND TAUGHT PRIDE IN YOUR GROUP AND INSPIRED WARRIORS TO WORK HARD AND DO THEIR BEST FOR THE TEAM (TRIBE OR FAMILY).
SHARKS WERE MENTIONED

THE OCEANIC WHITETIP AND THE REEF WHITETIP ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. THE REEF WHITE TIP IS MUCH SMALLER AND LIVES NEAR LAND OR REEFS AND IS NOT A THREAT TO MAN. THE OCEANIC WHITE TIP IS AN OPEN WATER SPECIES AND OCCURS IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS. THOUGH YOU SELDOM HEAR OF IT IS WAS INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE LARGE FEEDING FRENZYS WHEN SHIPS WERE SUNK DURING THE WARS. IT IS ALSO ONE OF THE LARGE SHARKS THAT LIKE TO FOLLOW SHIPS AND EAT WHAT IS THROWN OVERBOARD. I HAVE SEEN IT IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS AROUND THE NORTH OF NEW GUINEA IT COMES NEAR ISLANDS WHERE THERE ARE WALLS (UNDER WATER CLIFF DROP OFF) WITH DEEP WATER CLOSE TO LAND. I SAW A LARGE GROUP PATROLLING A WALL THAT WERE FROM 16 TO 18 FEET LONG , LUCKILY THEY WERE FULL OF FISH AND LIKELY CONSIDER A DIVER TOO UGLY TO EAT.

fearn · 28th July 2010, 04:15 PM

Hi Vandoo,

Yes and no. The Kiribati weapons like the one that started this thread are unique to that archipelago. Shark teeth on weapons are found all over the place, including on clubs in Indonesia. If we want to get technical, there are different ways of attaching the teeth to the club, and the Kiribati came up with one way (where the teeth are tied to thin splints of wood, which is tied to the club) that so far has only popped up there and maybe on Truk/Chuuk in knuckle dusters.

As for warfare, where to start? Supposedly, the northern Kiribati group were invaded and taken over by a group of exile Samoans. These islanders were known for raiding the southern islands for slaves, women, and whatever. Even today, northern Kiribati is governed by chiefs, while the southern islands are governed more democratically by groups of elders.

There are lots of stories of groups from Tonga, Samoa, and Fiji raiding outlying islands, and occasionally, outlying islands returning the favor. The Fijians thought it was proper to launch their warships (the ndruas) over the bodies of 4-5 human sacrifices (captured from...?). The Carolines were even raided by one or two Papuan tribes.

Let's not forget the Hawaiian wars of conquest, ending with Kamehameha. Or Easter Island. Or whatever happened to the Henderson Island/Mangareva group, which was totally depopulated by the time Europeans arrived.

Or the history of conquest and blackbirding that started when the Europeans arrived.

Island warfare was a small-scale affair, if only because tens to hundreds, rarely thousands of people were involved, not the tens of thousands we think about with modern European warfare. Still, they were pretty serious affairs.

I agree that coral atolls are small and fairly limited, but that also made them vulnerable, and there's no real place to hide on a small atoll, either. So they fought.

Fortunately, at least in Micronesia, they typically had enough ties with other islands that, if things got bad enough, through storm, drought, or war, the survivors could move in with relatives on other islands, until they rebuilt their gardens and could resettle.

Best,

F

27th July 2010, 06:39 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I JUST CAME ACROSS THIS OLD PICTURE OF THE WAY FIGHTS WERE SET UP IN THE MARSHALL ISLANDS IN THE OLD DAYS. NOTE SOME HAD THE HEAVY FIBER ARMOR AND OTHERS DID NOT, ALSO NOTE THE LEGNTH OF THE WEAPONS. ONE OF THE WEAPONS APPEARS TO HAVE THE DOUBBLE SHORTER GAURDS GIVING IT THREE POINTS KIND OF LIKE A BIG TRIDENT. I DON'T HAVE THE SOFTWARE TO CLEAN UP THE PHOTO SO IF ANYONE ELSE DOES FEEL FREE TO IMPROVE IT. I CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE THE SHARK TEETH BUT SUSPECT THEY ARE THERE. Attached Images

28th July 2010, 03:58 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KIRIBATI IS A GROUP OF ISLANDS NORTH OF TODAYS MARSHALL ISLANDS AND TODAY THAY ARE CONSIDERED DIFFERENT GROUPS AND NATIONS. PERHAPS IN THE PAST THEY WERE ALL GROUPED TOGETHER BY EUROPEANS??? HOW WIDE SPREAD THIS ARMOR AND WEAPON WAS THRUOUT MICRONESIA I DO NOT KNOW. AT ANY RATE I HAVE SEEN THE WEAPONS AND ARMOR LISTED OVER THE YEARS AS FROM THE MARSHALL ISLANDS, KINGSMILL ISLANDS ,GILBERT ISLANDS AND MORE RECENTLY AS KIRABATI. AS TO WEATHER THE ARMOR OR SPECIFIC TYPES OF SHARK TOOTH WEAPONS WERE DIFFERENT ON EACH ISLAND OR GROUP OF ISLANDS I HAVE NO REFRENCES TO FIND OUT. I SUSPECT THERE WERE VARIATIONS PERHAPS BASED ON THE TRIBE OR INDIVIDUAL FAMILY DESIGNS (NOTE THE DIFFERENCES IN THE DESIGN OF THE ARMOR ESPECIALLY THE BACK/ HEAD GUARDS IN THE ABOVE PICTURE) NOTE ALSO THE TWO INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT FULL ARMOR DO HAVE A PROTECTIVE GIRDLE AND GRASS SKIRT. THESE CHEST AND BELLY GIRDLES ARE ALSO USED IN NEW GUINEA AND SOME OF THE ISLANDS IN THE REGION. SHARK TOOTH WEAPONS ARE USED IN NEW GUINEA AND HAWAII AS WELL. I STILL SUSPECT THIS WAS CEREMONIAL COMBAT NOT OPEN WAR. ON AN ISLAND WAR AS THE EUROPEANS PRACTICED IT DID NOT MAKE SENSE AS IF EVERYTHING WAS DESTROYED OFTEN EVERYONE PERISHED. THE RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT ARE IN A DELICATE BALANCE ON AN ISLAND AND IF YOU FOUL YOUR NEST THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO. THE FACE OFF IN THE PICTURE APPEARS TO BE KIND OF LIKE A DUEL WITH THE TWO WARRIORS AND THEIR SECONDS. AT ANY RATE THE TWO GROUPS INVOLVED ARE THERE TO CHEER THEIR TEAM ON AND PERHAPS IT DECIDED WHO GOT TO HARVEST THE COCONUTS IN A CERTAN PRIME PART OF THE ISLAND THAT YEAR OR SOME OTHER THING. THIS WOULD MAKE SENSE AS IT WAS JUST COMPETICIAN AND TAUGHT PRIDE IN YOUR GROUP AND INSPIRED WARRIORS TO WORK HARD AND DO THEIR BEST FOR THE TEAM (TRIBE OR FAMILY). SHARKS WERE MENTIONED THE OCEANIC WHITETIP AND THE REEF WHITETIP ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. THE REEF WHITE TIP IS MUCH SMALLER AND LIVES NEAR LAND OR REEFS AND IS NOT A THREAT TO MAN. THE OCEANIC WHITE TIP IS AN OPEN WATER SPECIES AND OCCURS IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS. THOUGH YOU SELDOM HEAR OF IT IS WAS INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE LARGE FEEDING FRENZYS WHEN SHIPS WERE SUNK DURING THE WARS. IT IS ALSO ONE OF THE LARGE SHARKS THAT LIKE TO FOLLOW SHIPS AND EAT WHAT IS THROWN OVERBOARD. I HAVE SEEN IT IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS AROUND THE NORTH OF NEW GUINEA IT COMES NEAR ISLANDS WHERE THERE ARE WALLS (UNDER WATER CLIFF DROP OFF) WITH DEEP WATER CLOSE TO LAND. I SAW A LARGE GROUP PATROLLING A WALL THAT WERE FROM 16 TO 18 FEET LONG , LUCKILY THEY WERE FULL OF FISH AND LIKELY CONSIDER A DIVER TOO UGLY TO EAT. Last edited by VANDOO; 28th July 2010 at 04:13 PM.

8th March 2010, 07:19 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Chregu, You could be right. See URL=http://www.trussel.com/kir/less01.htm]link to Kiribati language[/URL] . Thanks for spotting that. I took the names in the illustration at face value (it's from an old ethnographic report I checked out of the library many years ago), but it looks like rere is in the dictionary I linked to, but tetoanea is not. Learned something new! Best, F

28th July 2010, 12:00 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, Is that Marshalls, or Kiribati (Gilberts)? I thought that sennit armor was unique to Kiribati. Best, F

28th July 2010, 01:34 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THOSE ARE ALL THE VARIOUS NAMES FOR THE SAME ISLANDS OVER TIME. KIRABATI IS THE LATEST NAME FOR THEM THESE PICTURES WOULD HAVE DATED FROM THE MARSHALL OR KINGSMILL DAYS.

28th July 2010, 04:20 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm pretty sure the Marshall Islands (currently Republic of the Marshall Islands) isn't the same as Kiribati (currently Republic of Kiribati). In I-Kiribati, "ti" is pronounced "s", and if you say the name, I think you can hear that Kiribati is a transliteration of "Gilbert." (Kiribas). I'd love to see some spears from the Marshall Islands, though. Best, F

28th July 2010, 03:45 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am always impressed with the depth of knowledge here. As mentioned, the white tipped reef shark is a good possibility because it is common in shallow waters; however, the teeth should have two small points on either side of the large tooth. The other species given as a possibility, the bull shark has teeth that match much better. The genus Carcharhinus (whaler sharks) has over 50 species, all with similar teeth to the ones on the dagger. Bull sharks are a member of the genus, are fairly common, and feed in shallow waters. Also, they have a reputation as man-eaters and therefore would be an excellent candidate for magical reasons as well. Josh

28th July 2010, 04:15 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, Yes and no. The Kiribati weapons like the one that started this thread are unique to that archipelago. Shark teeth on weapons are found all over the place, including on clubs in Indonesia. If we want to get technical, there are different ways of attaching the teeth to the club, and the Kiribati came up with one way (where the teeth are tied to thin splints of wood, which is tied to the club) that so far has only popped up there and maybe on Truk/Chuuk in knuckle dusters. As for warfare, where to start? Supposedly, the northern Kiribati group were invaded and taken over by a group of exile Samoans. These islanders were known for raiding the southern islands for slaves, women, and whatever. Even today, northern Kiribati is governed by chiefs, while the southern islands are governed more democratically by groups of elders. There are lots of stories of groups from Tonga, Samoa, and Fiji raiding outlying islands, and occasionally, outlying islands returning the favor. The Fijians thought it was proper to launch their warships (the ndruas) over the bodies of 4-5 human sacrifices (captured from...?). The Carolines were even raided by one or two Papuan tribes. Let's not forget the Hawaiian wars of conquest, ending with Kamehameha. Or Easter Island. Or whatever happened to the Henderson Island/Mangareva group, which was totally depopulated by the time Europeans arrived. Or the history of conquest and blackbirding that started when the Europeans arrived. Island warfare was a small-scale affair, if only because tens to hundreds, rarely thousands of people were involved, not the tens of thousands we think about with modern European warfare. Still, they were pretty serious affairs. I agree that coral atolls are small and fairly limited, but that also made them vulnerable, and there's no real place to hide on a small atoll, either. So they fought. Fortunately, at least in Micronesia, they typically had enough ties with other islands that, if things got bad enough, through storm, drought, or war, the survivors could move in with relatives on other islands, until they rebuilt their gardens and could resettle. Best, F