An interesting chalice for coments

Norman McCormick · 4th March 2010, 07:32 PM

Hi Fernando,
Scenes from the Reconquista was certainly my first thought but as has been said it could be almost anything portrayed in allegory e.g. Biblical, fable etc. Not much help I'm afraid.

My Regards,
Norman.
P.S. A very nice and interesting piece regardless.

fernando · 5th March 2010, 12:35 PM

Gentlemen,
I have shown this thread to the friend who owns the chalice.
He was astonished with such prompt cooperation and visible knowledge.
I will have to digest all the vast considerations and come back here to render my humble conclusion based on all that was said.
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

fernando · 7th March 2010, 01:04 PM

So,
After all thougts kindly posted, i have tried to make out a coherent panorama, focusing differently in the scenes, but i came to no conclusion. I wouldn't rule out a collage of random events put up by the decorator ... whether based on concrete events or not.
The efects shown on the cup's base don't seem contemporaneous to the ones shown in the body ... i mean, to me

. The lion motive misplaced, the drum looking a bit more modern than the other items (?). Also the wreath style looks later, although i can not discern any numbers ... Manolo

.
I also first thought the prisioners were Turks, Snefelder, same time as the soldiers could be Portuguese. After all, Portuguese main enemies when the discoveries period started were the Turks... even in the India coast.
But then, we see no muskets or crossbows, much used at the time.
Also the horses would be a forced situation, in such atempted context (?).
The halberds style look a bit stylized or 'too modern', but that could be the artist's perspective.
A different approach would be whatever nationaly soldiers having assaulted and sacked a determined place and prepare to embark with the loot ... prisioners included.
But sincerly, i think is best give up my brilliant deductions and resume to the sum of the opinnions given here by you fellows.
Thanks again.
Fernando

Matchlock · 30th March 2010, 04:35 AM

Hola Nando,

After almost all has been said, especially by our learned member A. Senefelder, all that's left to me is to state that in my opinion this chalice clearly reflects the late Italian/early German Renaissance taste of ca. 1530-40. Nevertheless, I am afraid that it actually is a Historismus production of the second half of the 19th century.
Now what does make me think so? It's both the characterization of the faces and the warriors' attitude.

Just my opinion though but as you know the late Gothic and early Renaissance styles are my favorites. It still might originate from the 1530's-40's which would make it a real sensation and price it somewhere in between 10,000 to 15,000 euro. Guess we should be able to see the actual item to make sure.

Highly interesting and important find anyway!

Best,
Michael

fernando · 1st April 2010, 01:58 PM

Thanks a lot for your observations, Michael.
It sure is an 'Historimus' production; i took the pictures myself.
As i said, is signed by Christofle, a manufacturer of fine silver flatware and home accessories based in France since 1830.
And the price was accordingly to that.
And as you say, it must be no older than close from 1900.
Fernando

4th March 2010, 07:32 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, Scenes from the Reconquista was certainly my first thought but as has been said it could be almost anything portrayed in allegory e.g. Biblical, fable etc. Not much help I'm afraid. My Regards, Norman. P.S. A very nice and interesting piece regardless.

5th March 2010, 12:35 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, I have shown this thread to the friend who owns the chalice. He was astonished with such prompt cooperation and visible knowledge. I will have to digest all the vast considerations and come back here to render my humble conclusion based on all that was said. Thanks a lot. Fernando

7th March 2010, 01:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So, After all thougts kindly posted, i have tried to make out a coherent panorama, focusing differently in the scenes, but i came to no conclusion. I wouldn't rule out a collage of random events put up by the decorator ... whether based on concrete events or not. The efects shown on the cup's base don't seem contemporaneous to the ones shown in the body ... i mean, to me . The lion motive misplaced, the drum looking a bit more modern than the other items (?). Also the wreath style looks later, although i can not discern any numbers ... Manolo . I also first thought the prisioners were Turks, Snefelder, same time as the soldiers could be Portuguese. After all, Portuguese main enemies when the discoveries period started were the Turks... even in the India coast. But then, we see no muskets or crossbows, much used at the time. Also the horses would be a forced situation, in such atempted context (?). The halberds style look a bit stylized or 'too modern', but that could be the artist's perspective. A different approach would be whatever nationaly soldiers having assaulted and sacked a determined place and prepare to embark with the loot ... prisioners included. But sincerly, i think is best give up my brilliant deductions and resume to the sum of the opinnions given here by you fellows. Thanks again. Fernando

30th March 2010, 04:35 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hola Nando, After almost all has been said, especially by our learned member A. Senefelder, all that's left to me is to state that in my opinion this chalice clearly reflects the late Italian/early German Renaissance taste of ca. 1530-40. Nevertheless, I am afraid that it actually is a Historismus production of the second half of the 19th century. Now what does make me think so? It's both the characterization of the faces and the warriors' attitude. Just my opinion though but as you know the late Gothic and early Renaissance styles are my favorites. It still might originate from the 1530's-40's which would make it a real sensation and price it somewhere in between 10,000 to 15,000 euro. Guess we should be able to see the actual item to make sure. Highly interesting and important find anyway! Best, Michael

1st April 2010, 01:58 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your observations, Michael. It sure is an 'Historimus' production; i took the pictures myself. As i said, is signed by Christofle, a manufacturer of fine silver flatware and home accessories based in France since 1830. And the price was accordingly to that. And as you say, it must be no older than close from 1900. Fernando