an insight into museums and collections

Ian · 26th May 2005, 06:07 AM

This is a depressing topic but at the same time might present some opportunities. I have wondered whether we as a community of collectors might be part of the solution, especially in the area of conservation.

Part of my "job" as a collector is to maintain my collection in good condition, and even restore some items. I look on this as a responsibility to history and a courtesy to the original culture that produced these magnificent works of style and function. Trial and error are two ways of learning, but I dare say that with a few weeks of "tutoring" by a professional conservator expert in edged weapons, many of us could be pretty darn proficient in this area, at least at the simple stuff. Passionate interest makes for busy hands and careful work.

What is to stop us from being volunteer conservators for some of these institutions? Museums are not likely to let anyone off the street go to work on their collections, but again if we were to undertake a little training, perhaps with a "certificate" at the end, then that might open doors to allow us to be helpful.

Now I did use the word "volunteer." Museums are not likely to pay anyone to do things that are not a priority for them. But free labor is hard to refuse, and I can't imagine the materials necessary to do a lot of this work are going to be very costly -- I'm not talking about repairing gold koftgari, replacing precious stones, or doing delicate restorations. Removing rust, polishing and oiling blades, maintaining leather, etc. are simple and important contributions that we could make.

I'm looking forward to an interesting retirement in about 10 years. This is something I have thought about doing, but don't really know where to start. Perhaps others are already involved and can offer suggestions.

Ian.

Battara · 26th May 2005, 08:28 AM

Interesting idea, Ian. I share your sentiments, although for doing restorations pay would be nice (I like money

). Besides, in the past museums sometimes came to collectors for loaning materials for exibit and still do.

Mark · 26th May 2005, 02:38 PM

I got a cool reaction when I offered to do some volunteer conservation on the SE Asian collection at the Smithsonian. Then again, I had essentially just walked off of the street at that point. Hopefully I can cultivate the relationship to the point where that could happen.

Rick · 26th May 2005, 02:52 PM

Occasional rays of sunlight in the collective gloom .

http://www.oakeshott.org/

B.I · 26th May 2005, 04:06 PM

i agree with andrew, and there is nowhere i would trust with my collection. again, this wasnt a moan about institutions, but a summary of the way things are at the moment.
there is always hope that things will change, and the 'ray of sunshine' rick offered proves that.
its all about generating an interest that goes past the already enthusiastic enthusiast. with our interest comes history and its in this history that the answers may lie in getting the general public on board. the cost of organising new exhibitions are ridiculously high, when you consider the hassle involved in museum loans etc. but, when one happens that concerns arms, you realise the decision to do this must be based on an interest that exists.
the oakshot institute is a great example of how things should be.
unfortunatley, ewan was an institution in himself and thus uncommon but we can all hope that we will all wield such prowess in the academic world one day :-)
also, his passion for his studies was well known, and so it would be hard to stifle his name now. his collection was almost secondary to the legacy he left behind.
i am glad everyone feels the same way. i said it was a hard post to write, for i knew i was in fear of giving ammunition to fire at institutions, which i really wanted to avoid. i should have had more faith :-)

B.I · 26th May 2005, 04:18 PM

ive attached an image of one of the pieces in the collection. this wasnt one i had pulled aside for the conservation team, as by then i thought i was pushing my luck. the environment is controlled now, and so any rust that has eaten in has done its damage and its spread will be slower.
i wont post any other pictures, and have cropped this to just show the gory details. with the omittence of the museums name, i am happy i am not breaking confidence by posting this.
the piece is an early pata. probably dates from the early 17thC (possibly slightly earlier), although its decoration (but not so much the form) goes into the late 16thC. always assumed as tanjore (or mysore in other cases) as most dont look further than these two districts. the style of decoration is more remeniscent of vellor, and in some ways madurai (although the chisselwork was finer) and the temples of both areas reflect this decoration.
this piece is completly covered in silver (blackened with tarnish) and the live rust has eaten below the silver and is pushing it out. the silver was flaking off in my hands as i held it and it was obvious it was a recent thing.
shocking picture, especially when you know it this wasnt the worst.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2005, 04:37 PM

It is a sad subject Brian brings up, sad, be course many of the museums don’t have the money/interest/knowledge, needed for the care of weapons and other artefacts, either bought over the years, or gifts the museum or the country have received.

The museums are not allowed/will not sell some of the weapons from their reserves, saying they are there for further research, and while waiting for the research many of the weapons rust – often badly, witch when/if the research is ever done it will be made difficult, if not impossible, according to how heavy the rust on the weapon is.

I really don’t see a solution on this problem, until the politicians start to wake. Until then, and it may be a while, Ian’s suggestion can be tried. I doubt that many collectors, even with extra education, will be allowed into the museums to help, be course, as Brian says, you have to know the curators well to be allowed to see their reserves – not to speak about cleaning the weapons – you might spoil the rust. When this said, I must also say, that I know many museums are very unhappy with the situation, and do what they can to change it, plus that the museums which have money do all they can to keep their reserves intact.

Saddening to see the pictures - did you say they had 1500 oriental weapons in all?

26th May 2005, 02:52 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Then There Are Occasional rays of sunlight in the collective gloom . http://www.oakeshott.org/

26th May 2005, 04:18 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	ive attached an image of one of the pieces in the collection. this wasnt one i had pulled aside for the conservation team, as by then i thought i was pushing my luck. the environment is controlled now, and so any rust that has eaten in has done its damage and its spread will be slower. i wont post any other pictures, and have cropped this to just show the gory details. with the omittence of the museums name, i am happy i am not breaking confidence by posting this. the piece is an early pata. probably dates from the early 17thC (possibly slightly earlier), although its decoration (but not so much the form) goes into the late 16thC. always assumed as tanjore (or mysore in other cases) as most dont look further than these two districts. the style of decoration is more remeniscent of vellor, and in some ways madurai (although the chisselwork was finer) and the temples of both areas reflect this decoration. this piece is completly covered in silver (blackened with tarnish) and the live rust has eaten below the silver and is pushing it out. the silver was flaking off in my hands as i held it and it was obvious it was a recent thing. shocking picture, especially when you know it this wasnt the worst. Attached Images

26th May 2005, 04:37 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is a sad subject Brian brings up, sad, be course many of the museums don’t have the money/interest/knowledge, needed for the care of weapons and other artefacts, either bought over the years, or gifts the museum or the country have received. The museums are not allowed/will not sell some of the weapons from their reserves, saying they are there for further research, and while waiting for the research many of the weapons rust – often badly, witch when/if the research is ever done it will be made difficult, if not impossible, according to how heavy the rust on the weapon is. I really don’t see a solution on this problem, until the politicians start to wake. Until then, and it may be a while, Ian’s suggestion can be tried. I doubt that many collectors, even with extra education, will be allowed into the museums to help, be course, as Brian says, you have to know the curators well to be allowed to see their reserves – not to speak about cleaning the weapons – you might spoil the rust. When this said, I must also say, that I know many museums are very unhappy with the situation, and do what they can to change it, plus that the museums which have money do all they can to keep their reserves intact. Saddening to see the pictures - did you say they had 1500 oriental weapons in all? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 26th May 2005 at 04:58 PM.

26th May 2005, 06:07 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	This is a depressing topic but at the same time might present some opportunities. I have wondered whether we as a community of collectors might be part of the solution, especially in the area of conservation. Part of my "job" as a collector is to maintain my collection in good condition, and even restore some items. I look on this as a responsibility to history and a courtesy to the original culture that produced these magnificent works of style and function. Trial and error are two ways of learning, but I dare say that with a few weeks of "tutoring" by a professional conservator expert in edged weapons, many of us could be pretty darn proficient in this area, at least at the simple stuff. Passionate interest makes for busy hands and careful work. What is to stop us from being volunteer conservators for some of these institutions? Museums are not likely to let anyone off the street go to work on their collections, but again if we were to undertake a little training, perhaps with a "certificate" at the end, then that might open doors to allow us to be helpful. Now I did use the word "volunteer." Museums are not likely to pay anyone to do things that are not a priority for them. But free labor is hard to refuse, and I can't imagine the materials necessary to do a lot of this work are going to be very costly -- I'm not talking about repairing gold koftgari, replacing precious stones, or doing delicate restorations. Removing rust, polishing and oiling blades, maintaining leather, etc. are simple and important contributions that we could make. I'm looking forward to an interesting retirement in about 10 years. This is something I have thought about doing, but don't really know where to start. Perhaps others are already involved and can offer suggestions. Ian.

26th May 2005, 08:28 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Interesting idea, Ian. I share your sentiments, although for doing restorations pay would be nice (I like money ). Besides, in the past museums sometimes came to collectors for loaning materials for exibit and still do.

26th May 2005, 02:38 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I got a cool reaction when I offered to do some volunteer conservation on the SE Asian collection at the Smithsonian. Then again, I had essentially just walked off of the street at that point. Hopefully I can cultivate the relationship to the point where that could happen.

26th May 2005, 04:06 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i agree with andrew, and there is nowhere i would trust with my collection. again, this wasnt a moan about institutions, but a summary of the way things are at the moment. there is always hope that things will change, and the 'ray of sunshine' rick offered proves that. its all about generating an interest that goes past the already enthusiastic enthusiast. with our interest comes history and its in this history that the answers may lie in getting the general public on board. the cost of organising new exhibitions are ridiculously high, when you consider the hassle involved in museum loans etc. but, when one happens that concerns arms, you realise the decision to do this must be based on an interest that exists. the oakshot institute is a great example of how things should be. unfortunatley, ewan was an institution in himself and thus uncommon but we can all hope that we will all wield such prowess in the academic world one day :-) also, his passion for his studies was well known, and so it would be hard to stifle his name now. his collection was almost secondary to the legacy he left behind. i am glad everyone feels the same way. i said it was a hard post to write, for i knew i was in fear of giving ammunition to fire at institutions, which i really wanted to avoid. i should have had more faith :-)