An interesting chalice for coments

fernando · 3rd March 2010, 07:49 PM

Thanks a lot.

A Senefelder · 4th March 2010, 03:45 AM

Fernando, the prisoners in the second pic appear to be Turks. The armour shown seems to depict 16th century styles possibly from several regional preferences, the prevelance of maille standards or bishops miters leading me to believe that German lanscknects are amongst the depicted. There are numerous half armours and most of the helmet depicted are of various infantry types of the 16th century, casquetel burgeonetts, a number of 16th century variations of the chapel de fer familly including what seems to be some cabacettes. I'm guessing based on the gear that the seen depicted is in the 1540-1560's range ( the maille standards are my only limiting factor to time, the rest of the equipment would be just as at home in the 1570-1600 range ). There is depicted some sort of naval landing in the 6th and 11th pics down. I'm thinking that the whole depicts some sort of 16th century military conquest in the 1540s to 1560's, given the naval operation depicted and that the prisoners are seemingly Turks, probably by one of the Italian city states in the 16th century. While there are fairly standard trophied arms motifs around the base the lions heads flanked with what might be matching letters or emblems might give a clue as to who or what this was made for.

Its neater than all get out and quite a find! I can tell from the pics that theres quite a bit of detail I can't make out that may give more clues as to whats being depicted and when ( given that allegorical events were often depicted with the participants wearing the modern equipment of the day, this cannot be ruled out as a possible source of the event portrayed. ).

Marc · 4th March 2010, 11:14 AM

Beyond the analysis laid out by A Senefelder, with which I have to say that I agree, if I had to bet anything on this, my money would go to the tapestries series "The conquest of Tunis".
In 1535, when campaigning against the pirate kingdom of Tunis, held by Barbarossa and the Turks, Charles V took with him the Dutch artist Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. From his experiences in the successful campaign he produced a series of detailed sketches that were afterwards used as a model for weaving (in the 1550's, I think) the monumental tapestries that constituted a chronicle of the event. The sketches (14, I think, of which 12 survived until today) can be seen today on display on the walls of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, in Vienna, where they fill a whole wing (they are huge). Many of the actual tapestries are also preserved nowadays in various Royal Spanish Collections.
The style of the images depicted in the chalice is quite familiar, and remembers me strongly of these series. The fact that I recently had to privilege of going to Vienna, appreciate them first-hand and becoming enthralled by their beauty and detail, may be conditioning my perception, though

These tapestries were already well-known and well-admired in their time and have been since then, so it wouldn't be strange to find figures extracted from them in other pieces of decorative art.

3rd March 2010, 07:49 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot.

4th March 2010, 03:45 AM	#2
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Fernando, the prisoners in the second pic appear to be Turks. The armour shown seems to depict 16th century styles possibly from several regional preferences, the prevelance of maille standards or bishops miters leading me to believe that German lanscknects are amongst the depicted. There are numerous half armours and most of the helmet depicted are of various infantry types of the 16th century, casquetel burgeonetts, a number of 16th century variations of the chapel de fer familly including what seems to be some cabacettes. I'm guessing based on the gear that the seen depicted is in the 1540-1560's range ( the maille standards are my only limiting factor to time, the rest of the equipment would be just as at home in the 1570-1600 range ). There is depicted some sort of naval landing in the 6th and 11th pics down. I'm thinking that the whole depicts some sort of 16th century military conquest in the 1540s to 1560's, given the naval operation depicted and that the prisoners are seemingly Turks, probably by one of the Italian city states in the 16th century. While there are fairly standard trophied arms motifs around the base the lions heads flanked with what might be matching letters or emblems might give a clue as to who or what this was made for. Its neater than all get out and quite a find! I can tell from the pics that theres quite a bit of detail I can't make out that may give more clues as to whats being depicted and when ( given that allegorical events were often depicted with the participants wearing the modern equipment of the day, this cannot be ruled out as a possible source of the event portrayed. ).

4th March 2010, 11:14 AM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Beyond the analysis laid out by A Senefelder, with which I have to say that I agree, if I had to bet anything on this, my money would go to the tapestries series "The conquest of Tunis". In 1535, when campaigning against the pirate kingdom of Tunis, held by Barbarossa and the Turks, Charles V took with him the Dutch artist Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. From his experiences in the successful campaign he produced a series of detailed sketches that were afterwards used as a model for weaving (in the 1550's, I think) the monumental tapestries that constituted a chronicle of the event. The sketches (14, I think, of which 12 survived until today) can be seen today on display on the walls of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, in Vienna, where they fill a whole wing (they are huge). Many of the actual tapestries are also preserved nowadays in various Royal Spanish Collections. The style of the images depicted in the chalice is quite familiar, and remembers me strongly of these series. The fact that I recently had to privilege of going to Vienna, appreciate them first-hand and becoming enthralled by their beauty and detail, may be conditioning my perception, though These tapestries were already well-known and well-admired in their time and have been since then, so it wouldn't be strange to find figures extracted from them in other pieces of decorative art.