Appearance of the Kukri in Classical South Indian Culture

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd March 2010, 04:06 PM

Nidhi,

Thank you for clarifying this. It is most interesting, as Ibn Batutta in 1332, in his memoirs, described how a friend of his was killed with a katar at the south west coast of India.

The katar shown on the frieze is fully developed, like we know them to day, so that it was fully developed at that time, must mean it is older than 14 century – very few weapons, if any at all, have been unchanged, or almost unchanged, for such a long period.

Jens

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 06:04 PM

Hi Nidhi,

Regarding what I perceive as an evolution of form, the (what appears to be a) bichwa you show above, while indeed 'reverse-curved,' is much later than the examples depicted in the friezes, is it not? I have always been under the impression that the recurved daggers, such as the bichwa and chillanum, are indeed an indigenous development within the Indian subcontinent, while the forward-curved blades are not.

Maybe this is conjecture, though it is most certainly supported by the known introduction of the forward-curved kopis to India in the 4th century BCE. By contrast, at least AFAIK, there is no documentation - in art or history - of the introduction of a recurved blade form from elsewhere outside India. I am thusly cautious about the use of "indigenous" in the description of the ayudha katti (in the form we recognize it today). The "indiegenous" people of North America in truth migrated across the Bering Straight at one point in antiquity.

It is for this reason I look to answer the question regarding the possible evolution of form: the temple friezes in Halebidu are the earliest depiction of the kukri I have seen in South India. The frieze from Shimoga - according to the curators as per your post - were constructed a good two centuries later. I guess one could argue it is a matter of semantics, but I would tend to disagree - as the "kink" of the ayudha katti occurs on the interior (cutting) edge, while the "kukri kink" in addition occurs on the spine - IMO the clear identifying factor in the Hoysala friezes. The depictions on the friezes in Shimoga and Halebidu illustrate this difference nicely IMO.

On the other hand, I think the hilt treatment depicted in the Halebidu sculptures does more somewhat resemble the ayudha katti in its modern form, but that itself begs the question: is typology more closely tied to blade form, or hilt form?

So anyway, you mention you are based in S. India... B'lore? Maybe you'll consider getting together for a temple day trip upon our next return...

Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 06:34 PM

As a footnote, I think that the dynamics evolution of form of both art and weapons follows the same pattern as linguistics, with regards to divergence (from a common influence) over time. In the absence of any formal study on the evolution of the kukri in S. India, these artistic architectural treasures (which predate all but the very earliest illustrated manuscripts - and how many of those from the pre-Mughal South survive to this day?) are probably the best historical depictions and documented chronology we have of contemporary weaponry at the time.

Here's a close-up of both the ayudha katti and the katar in the Shimoga frieze. Maybe I don't have the eyes as you or Jens, but I am unable to discern the detail of the katar from the photo, aside from its general dimensions. What does surprise me is its rather diminutive size...

Note the fuller shown in the katti above... also the classic Indian treatment of the langlets on the straight-edged sword in the same frieze.

olikara · 2nd March 2010, 08:18 PM

Chris,

Thank you for your detailed notes here. The Shimoga frieze as per my understanding shows a medium length recurved sword and certainly not a bichwa as can be understood from the way that the grip is clutched.

I agree with you in full measure that many forms what we call 'indigenous' may not be so and you have rightly narrated the case of the 'Indians' of North America. Here it is very important to know if we have older representations of the Khukri in Nepali or Eastern Indian art and can show it's time trail. I am not sure if Spiral is around but he can surely help us here.

Much of the Nepalese nobility had origins in North India after the Muslim incursions and weapon form transfer may have taken place from India to Nepal too.

You raised a very important question here of typology and if we can relate it to hilt or blade form. I'd go with the blade any time as it is the one distinguishing factor for an edged weapon, but others would have their own views.

Chris, temple friezes are the most important method to understand Indian weaponry and it's evolution over time and this is an aspect that has not been studied very hard so far. So your thread is an outstanding piece to understand this evolution.

I have attached a pic of the frieze with the katar highlighted for you. I intend to visit the museum again later this week and take better and more pictures of this frieze as it is undoubtedly an important one from both the sword as well as the katar perspective. Maybe we shall be clearer here with better pictures of both.

Nidhi

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 09:41 PM

Hi Nidhi,

The bichwa I mentioned was in reference to the second photograph you posted (of the piece from Bikaner armory) - not the first photograph of the ayudha katti in the frieze...

Thank you for taking the time to highlight the details of the katar (though as best as I can ascertain, the separation of the crossbars seems to be somewhat exaggerated in the overlay). I still don't see the level of detail in the frieze as do you or Jens, but as mentioned, I am surprised at the katar's rather diminutive size. I have a European-bladed example that dates to the 17th C., and am familiar with the 19th C. Rajastani forms, but the katar depicted in the frieze appears noticeably smaller than either. Of course, as hinted to throughout this thread, much can change over the course of several centuries...

I will look forward with anticipation to the photographs following your next visit to Shimoga.

Anyway, regarding this thread, I am most grateful to see others with an interest joining in the discussion...

So I'm still waiting to hear if you are based out of B'lore... if so, it would afford me the rare opportunity of treating you to California cuisine at one of my favorite B'lore restaurants. In fact, if you can name the restaurant, I'll treat you to a Kingfisher (what's another Rs. 300 charged for a Rs. 40 beer?) as well.

I'll even give you a hint - it's off Museum Road...

Regards,

Chris

Emanuel · 3rd March 2010, 12:41 AM

Hello

Thank you for these photos. I'm very interested in the khukri origin question and associations with the Macedonian kopis. I don't think we can discount parallel development of the same shape in India prior to Macedonian incursion. Similar problems often give rise to similar solutions despite wide geographic separation and isolation. India also experimented with some very complex and extravagant blade shapes.

Elgood (Hindu Arms and Ritual) shows a number of friezes from Mamallapuram (p83) dating from the mid-seventh century, that depict forward curving blades with recurved edge. There are also a number of 15th-16th century swords with similar characteristics. These are all sword sized and they straddle a fine line between convex curve and recurve. I'm sorry I don't have access to a scanner at the moment.

I've edited the pic with the katar a bit, it's somewhat more visible. I doesn't seem that diminutive. In proportion to the rest of the figure it's as long as his thigh so fairly long.

Nice discussion!
Emanuel

laEspadaAncha · 3rd March 2010, 01:13 AM

Hello Emanuel,

Interesting! I guess I'll have to add Mamallapuram to my list of destinations the next time my wife and I return to India... Those reliefs you reference would predate the temple at Halebidu by half a millennium. Do you happen to recall if those friezes also depicted a kink in the spine as well, or was the forward curve / convex / recurve limited to the cutting edge?

It just goes to show how thin my reference library is... thank you for the reference to the text, as well as for the better enlargement.

Regarding the katar in Nidhi's photo, if I mimic the angle of the knee (approximating stirrup position based on that depicted in the frieze), I measure approximately 7-8 inches / 17.8-20.3 cm in vertical drop from my belt line to the bottom of my thigh. I guess as per my exposure to the weapon, a 7 inch katar blade still seems rather diminutive to me...

Cheers,

Chris

olikara · 3rd March 2010, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Nidhi,
So I'm still waiting to hear if you are based out of B'lore... if so, it would afford me the rare opportunity of treating you to California cuisine at one of my favorite B'lore restaurants. In fact, if you can name the restaurant, I'll treat you to a Kingfisher (what's another Rs. 300 charged for a Rs. 40 beer?) as well.

I'll even give you a hint - it's off Museum Road...

Have sent you a PM.

Chris, katar blades only 7 inches in length are not a rarity. I have seen blades even 5 inches long forged along with the grip. Generally Indian blades were shorter than the foreign ones(originally longer sword blades shortened down) that are seen in profusion later.

You may want to check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=110468708718

Thanks for the clearer snap, Emanuel.

Nidhi

Emanuel · 3rd March 2010, 06:19 PM

Hi Chris,

Perhaps you should clarify what you are looking for and how you are defining khukri. The kink is present in some form or other...the mid-axis of the blade is angled forward. The treatment of the spine is irrelevant I think, some have a very strong angular "kink" while other have a very smooth and gentle wide-angled curve. The example in the frieze is of the latter variety. Many of the 16th century pieces have a very strongly angled spine. I'll scan the pages when I get home tonight or tomorrow.

Attached are some pictures from "El Armamento Iberico" Fernando Quesada Sanz. It shows examples of the Greek kopis and the Iberian falcata, very similar weapons, very khukri-like, but both developed differently. The kopis is suggested to have developed from the Egyptian and Sumerian kopesh/sappara, themselves developed from an axe, while the falcata is thought to derive from celtic knives.

Also check out Spiral's pictures from the Kathmando National Museum You can see that the old 18th century khukri are often large, sword-sized and have a very smooth spine, no "kink" as in British pattern and post-WWI khukri.

I look at khukri as a branch of a general stream of experimentation in blade design that may have started with Macedonian incursion, earlier, or later, both independent and related. It's very hard not to see the kopis as a direct ancestor, but the falcata shows the possibility of a parallel development, so we shouldn't rule out the same with the khukri/South Indian blades.

Food for thought...

Emanuel

Emanuel · 3rd March 2010, 06:42 PM

Just to throw in another wrench in the question, here is a shot of a 5th century BC Greek cup showing a Greek soldier fighting a Persian. Notice the Persian, not the Greek is wielding a kopis-like sword. The cup, help in the Antikenmuseum Basel und Sammlung Ludwig museu (# BS 480) is dated to 480 BC, over a century earlier than Alexander. At the time the Persian Empire extended to the Indus River, so we may consider this form of sword having being known in India much earlier than Alexander's incursion.

Food for thought...
Emanuel

laEspadaAncha · 3rd March 2010, 07:12 PM

Hi Emanuel,

Thank you for both the links and for posting those illustrations!

I wondered the same thing about the early kukris, given the progression of 20th century military-pattern kukris transition from the more rounded spine to the more contemporary "kinked" angular spine... Then I found an earlier Indian kukri that had the angular kink lacking from the the more gentle curves of contemporary Nepali kukris, and upon viewing the friezes at Halebidu couldn't help but make the association.

I do think that my labeling of the swords / knives depicted in the friezes at Halebidu may have been prematurely presumptive. Persistence and luck paid off when I found this example online, with a Southwest Indian attribution:

This is a far more distinct example of an ayudha katti than I have previously seen, and indeed IMO a close match to the weapons depicted in the friezes at Halebidu.

Furthermore, in form it appears to have characteristics that significantly distinguish it from both the kukri - whether derived from the kopis, earlier Persian influences, or of independent origin - as well as from other expressions of the ayudha katti I have seen in print and on line. The distinctiveness of this particular example, would, IMHO, lend credence to Nidhi's suggestion of the existence of the forward-curved ayudha katti as an indigenous form.

And thank you for that most enlightening last post.

Regards,

Chris

2nd March 2010, 08:18 PM	#4
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	The Khukri and others Chris, Thank you for your detailed notes here. The Shimoga frieze as per my understanding shows a medium length recurved sword and certainly not a bichwa as can be understood from the way that the grip is clutched. I agree with you in full measure that many forms what we call 'indigenous' may not be so and you have rightly narrated the case of the 'Indians' of North America. Here it is very important to know if we have older representations of the Khukri in Nepali or Eastern Indian art and can show it's time trail. I am not sure if Spiral is around but he can surely help us here. Much of the Nepalese nobility had origins in North India after the Muslim incursions and weapon form transfer may have taken place from India to Nepal too. You raised a very important question here of typology and if we can relate it to hilt or blade form. I'd go with the blade any time as it is the one distinguishing factor for an edged weapon, but others would have their own views. Chris, temple friezes are the most important method to understand Indian weaponry and it's evolution over time and this is an aspect that has not been studied very hard so far. So your thread is an outstanding piece to understand this evolution. I have attached a pic of the frieze with the katar highlighted for you. I intend to visit the museum again later this week and take better and more pictures of this frieze as it is undoubtedly an important one from both the sword as well as the katar perspective. Maybe we shall be clearer here with better pictures of both. Nidhi Attached Images

3rd March 2010, 12:41 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Thank you for these photos. I'm very interested in the khukri origin question and associations with the Macedonian kopis. I don't think we can discount parallel development of the same shape in India prior to Macedonian incursion. Similar problems often give rise to similar solutions despite wide geographic separation and isolation. India also experimented with some very complex and extravagant blade shapes. Elgood (Hindu Arms and Ritual) shows a number of friezes from Mamallapuram (p83) dating from the mid-seventh century, that depict forward curving blades with recurved edge. There are also a number of 15th-16th century swords with similar characteristics. These are all sword sized and they straddle a fine line between convex curve and recurve. I'm sorry I don't have access to a scanner at the moment. I've edited the pic with the katar a bit, it's somewhat more visible. I doesn't seem that diminutive. In proportion to the rest of the figure it's as long as his thigh so fairly long. Nice discussion! Emanuel Attached Images

3rd March 2010, 06:19 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Chris, Perhaps you should clarify what you are looking for and how you are defining khukri. The kink is present in some form or other...the mid-axis of the blade is angled forward. The treatment of the spine is irrelevant I think, some have a very strong angular "kink" while other have a very smooth and gentle wide-angled curve. The example in the frieze is of the latter variety. Many of the 16th century pieces have a very strongly angled spine. I'll scan the pages when I get home tonight or tomorrow. Attached are some pictures from "El Armamento Iberico" Fernando Quesada Sanz. It shows examples of the Greek kopis and the Iberian falcata, very similar weapons, very khukri-like, but both developed differently. The kopis is suggested to have developed from the Egyptian and Sumerian kopesh/sappara, themselves developed from an axe, while the falcata is thought to derive from celtic knives. Also check out Spiral's pictures from the Kathmando National Museum You can see that the old 18th century khukri are often large, sword-sized and have a very smooth spine, no "kink" as in British pattern and post-WWI khukri. I look at khukri as a branch of a general stream of experimentation in blade design that may have started with Macedonian incursion, earlier, or later, both independent and related. It's very hard not to see the kopis as a direct ancestor, but the falcata shows the possibility of a parallel development, so we shouldn't rule out the same with the khukri/South Indian blades. Food for thought... Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 3rd March 2010 at 06:52 PM.

3rd March 2010, 06:42 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Just to throw in another wrench in the question, here is a shot of a 5th century BC Greek cup showing a Greek soldier fighting a Persian. Notice the Persian, not the Greek is wielding a kopis-like sword. The cup, help in the Antikenmuseum Basel und Sammlung Ludwig museu (# BS 480) is dated to 480 BC, over a century earlier than Alexander. At the time the Persian Empire extended to the Indus River, so we may consider this form of sword having being known in India much earlier than Alexander's incursion. Food for thought... Emanuel Attached Images

2nd March 2010, 04:06 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nidhi, Thank you for clarifying this. It is most interesting, as Ibn Batutta in 1332, in his memoirs, described how a friend of his was killed with a katar at the south west coast of India. The katar shown on the frieze is fully developed, like we know them to day, so that it was fully developed at that time, must mean it is older than 14 century – very few weapons, if any at all, have been unchanged, or almost unchanged, for such a long period. Jens

2nd March 2010, 06:04 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nidhi, Regarding what I perceive as an evolution of form, the (what appears to be a) bichwa you show above, while indeed 'reverse-curved,' is much later than the examples depicted in the friezes, is it not? I have always been under the impression that the recurved daggers, such as the bichwa and chillanum, are indeed an indigenous development within the Indian subcontinent, while the forward-curved blades are not. Maybe this is conjecture, though it is most certainly supported by the known introduction of the forward-curved kopis to India in the 4th century BCE. By contrast, at least AFAIK, there is no documentation - in art or history - of the introduction of a recurved blade form from elsewhere outside India. I am thusly cautious about the use of "indigenous" in the description of the ayudha katti (in the form we recognize it today). The "indiegenous" people of North America in truth migrated across the Bering Straight at one point in antiquity. It is for this reason I look to answer the question regarding the possible evolution of form: the temple friezes in Halebidu are the earliest depiction of the kukri I have seen in South India. The frieze from Shimoga - according to the curators as per your post - were constructed a good two centuries later. I guess one could argue it is a matter of semantics, but I would tend to disagree - as the "kink" of the ayudha katti occurs on the interior (cutting) edge, while the "kukri kink" in addition occurs on the spine - IMO the clear identifying factor in the Hoysala friezes. The depictions on the friezes in Shimoga and Halebidu illustrate this difference nicely IMO. On the other hand, I think the hilt treatment depicted in the Halebidu sculptures does more somewhat resemble the ayudha katti in its modern form, but that itself begs the question: is typology more closely tied to blade form, or hilt form? So anyway, you mention you are based in S. India... B'lore? Maybe you'll consider getting together for a temple day trip upon our next return... Regards, Chris

2nd March 2010, 06:34 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	As a footnote, I think that the dynamics evolution of form of both art and weapons follows the same pattern as linguistics, with regards to divergence (from a common influence) over time. In the absence of any formal study on the evolution of the kukri in S. India, these artistic architectural treasures (which predate all but the very earliest illustrated manuscripts - and how many of those from the pre-Mughal South survive to this day?) are probably the best historical depictions and documented chronology we have of contemporary weaponry at the time. Here's a close-up of both the ayudha katti and the katar in the Shimoga frieze. Maybe I don't have the eyes as you or Jens, but I am unable to discern the detail of the katar from the photo, aside from its general dimensions. What does surprise me is its rather diminutive size... Note the fuller shown in the katti above... also the classic Indian treatment of the langlets on the straight-edged sword in the same frieze.

2nd March 2010, 09:41 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nidhi, The bichwa I mentioned was in reference to the second photograph you posted (of the piece from Bikaner armory) - not the first photograph of the ayudha katti in the frieze... Thank you for taking the time to highlight the details of the katar (though as best as I can ascertain, the separation of the crossbars seems to be somewhat exaggerated in the overlay). I still don't see the level of detail in the frieze as do you or Jens, but as mentioned, I am surprised at the katar's rather diminutive size. I have a European-bladed example that dates to the 17th C., and am familiar with the 19th C. Rajastani forms, but the katar depicted in the frieze appears noticeably smaller than either. Of course, as hinted to throughout this thread, much can change over the course of several centuries... I will look forward with anticipation to the photographs following your next visit to Shimoga. Anyway, regarding this thread, I am most grateful to see others with an interest joining in the discussion... So I'm still waiting to hear if you are based out of B'lore... if so, it would afford me the rare opportunity of treating you to California cuisine at one of my favorite B'lore restaurants. In fact, if you can name the restaurant, I'll treat you to a Kingfisher (what's another Rs. 300 charged for a Rs. 40 beer?) as well. I'll even give you a hint - it's off Museum Road... Regards, Chris

3rd March 2010, 01:13 AM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Emanuel, Interesting! I guess I'll have to add Mamallapuram to my list of destinations the next time my wife and I return to India... Those reliefs you reference would predate the temple at Halebidu by half a millennium. Do you happen to recall if those friezes also depicted a kink in the spine as well, or was the forward curve / convex / recurve limited to the cutting edge? It just goes to show how thin my reference library is... thank you for the reference to the text, as well as for the better enlargement. Regarding the katar in Nidhi's photo, if I mimic the angle of the knee (approximating stirrup position based on that depicted in the frieze), I measure approximately 7-8 inches / 17.8-20.3 cm in vertical drop from my belt line to the bottom of my thigh. I guess as per my exposure to the weapon, a 7 inch katar blade still seems rather diminutive to me... Cheers, Chris

3rd March 2010, 07:12 PM	#11
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Emanuel, Thank you for both the links and for posting those illustrations! I wondered the same thing about the early kukris, given the progression of 20th century military-pattern kukris transition from the more rounded spine to the more contemporary "kinked" angular spine... Then I found an earlier Indian kukri that had the angular kink lacking from the the more gentle curves of contemporary Nepali kukris, and upon viewing the friezes at Halebidu couldn't help but make the association. I do think that my labeling of the swords / knives depicted in the friezes at Halebidu may have been prematurely presumptive. Persistence and luck paid off when I found this example online, with a Southwest Indian attribution: This is a far more distinct example of an ayudha katti than I have previously seen, and indeed IMO a close match to the weapons depicted in the friezes at Halebidu. Furthermore, in form it appears to have characteristics that significantly distinguish it from both the kukri - whether derived from the kopis, earlier Persian influences, or of independent origin - as well as from other expressions of the ayudha katti I have seen in print and on line. The distinctiveness of this particular example, would, IMHO, lend credence to Nidhi's suggestion of the existence of the forward-curved ayudha katti as an indigenous form. And thank you for that most enlightening last post. Regards, Chris