Appearance of the Kukri in Classical South Indian Culture

olikara · 2nd March 2010, 10:20 AM

Hello,
This is from the local museum at Shimoga in Southern Karnataka, where I am based. The museum has several more friezes where the reversed blade is depicted. There is also one from the 14th C.A.D. This frieze is actually from Huliyal in Southern Karnataka.

I do not have a larger snap but the zoom option on any photo editor shows the katar very well with it's twin grips too!

As for your question about when the Southern kukri 'evolved' into the Ayudha Katthi', I am not sure if there was any such evolution. The reversed curved blade has been around here since the 13th C.A.D. as can be verified from dated temple architecture and I wouldn't be surprised if it was around several centuries earlier too. The reverse curved form is seen on long and short edged blades - swords, daggers (chillanum blades), ayudha kathi (medium sized blade), etc.

I have an intersting reverse curved piece from the Bikaner armoury. It from it's Southern hilt style and brass construction would most probably have been brought over from the South to the Bikaner armoury after Adoni fell to the Mughals.

Nidhi

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd March 2010, 12:40 PM

Nidhi, thank you for posting the picture, it is the earliest image I have seen of a katar, and it looks as if it is fully developed.

Is a katar shown on the frieze from the 14 C.A.D.?

Jens

olikara · 2nd March 2010, 02:23 PM

Jens,

This particular frieze is from the 14th century AD(1300 -1399) as per the detail provided by the museum curators and I agree with it seeing the particular hair styles of the warriors, and clearly shows a katar in the horseman's waistband.

Yes, this 14th C piece is the earliest representation of the Katar I have seen till date in S Indian sculpture.

The other 14th C piece whose photograph I do not have at this moment, only shows a reverse curved sword and no katar.

Nidhi

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd March 2010, 04:06 PM

Nidhi,

Thank you for clarifying this. It is most interesting, as Ibn Batutta in 1332, in his memoirs, described how a friend of his was killed with a katar at the south west coast of India.

The katar shown on the frieze is fully developed, like we know them to day, so that it was fully developed at that time, must mean it is older than 14 century – very few weapons, if any at all, have been unchanged, or almost unchanged, for such a long period.

Jens

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 06:04 PM

Hi Nidhi,

Regarding what I perceive as an evolution of form, the (what appears to be a) bichwa you show above, while indeed 'reverse-curved,' is much later than the examples depicted in the friezes, is it not? I have always been under the impression that the recurved daggers, such as the bichwa and chillanum, are indeed an indigenous development within the Indian subcontinent, while the forward-curved blades are not.

Maybe this is conjecture, though it is most certainly supported by the known introduction of the forward-curved kopis to India in the 4th century BCE. By contrast, at least AFAIK, there is no documentation - in art or history - of the introduction of a recurved blade form from elsewhere outside India. I am thusly cautious about the use of "indigenous" in the description of the ayudha katti (in the form we recognize it today). The "indiegenous" people of North America in truth migrated across the Bering Straight at one point in antiquity.

It is for this reason I look to answer the question regarding the possible evolution of form: the temple friezes in Halebidu are the earliest depiction of the kukri I have seen in South India. The frieze from Shimoga - according to the curators as per your post - were constructed a good two centuries later. I guess one could argue it is a matter of semantics, but I would tend to disagree - as the "kink" of the ayudha katti occurs on the interior (cutting) edge, while the "kukri kink" in addition occurs on the spine - IMO the clear identifying factor in the Hoysala friezes. The depictions on the friezes in Shimoga and Halebidu illustrate this difference nicely IMO.

On the other hand, I think the hilt treatment depicted in the Halebidu sculptures does more somewhat resemble the ayudha katti in its modern form, but that itself begs the question: is typology more closely tied to blade form, or hilt form?

So anyway, you mention you are based in S. India... B'lore? Maybe you'll consider getting together for a temple day trip upon our next return...

Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 06:34 PM

As a footnote, I think that the dynamics evolution of form of both art and weapons follows the same pattern as linguistics, with regards to divergence (from a common influence) over time. In the absence of any formal study on the evolution of the kukri in S. India, these artistic architectural treasures (which predate all but the very earliest illustrated manuscripts - and how many of those from the pre-Mughal South survive to this day?) are probably the best historical depictions and documented chronology we have of contemporary weaponry at the time.

Here's a close-up of both the ayudha katti and the katar in the Shimoga frieze. Maybe I don't have the eyes as you or Jens, but I am unable to discern the detail of the katar from the photo, aside from its general dimensions. What does surprise me is its rather diminutive size...

Note the fuller shown in the katti above... also the classic Indian treatment of the langlets on the straight-edged sword in the same frieze.

olikara · 2nd March 2010, 08:18 PM

Chris,

Thank you for your detailed notes here. The Shimoga frieze as per my understanding shows a medium length recurved sword and certainly not a bichwa as can be understood from the way that the grip is clutched.

I agree with you in full measure that many forms what we call 'indigenous' may not be so and you have rightly narrated the case of the 'Indians' of North America. Here it is very important to know if we have older representations of the Khukri in Nepali or Eastern Indian art and can show it's time trail. I am not sure if Spiral is around but he can surely help us here.

Much of the Nepalese nobility had origins in North India after the Muslim incursions and weapon form transfer may have taken place from India to Nepal too.

You raised a very important question here of typology and if we can relate it to hilt or blade form. I'd go with the blade any time as it is the one distinguishing factor for an edged weapon, but others would have their own views.

Chris, temple friezes are the most important method to understand Indian weaponry and it's evolution over time and this is an aspect that has not been studied very hard so far. So your thread is an outstanding piece to understand this evolution.

I have attached a pic of the frieze with the katar highlighted for you. I intend to visit the museum again later this week and take better and more pictures of this frieze as it is undoubtedly an important one from both the sword as well as the katar perspective. Maybe we shall be clearer here with better pictures of both.

Nidhi

laEspadaAncha · 2nd March 2010, 09:41 PM

Hi Nidhi,

The bichwa I mentioned was in reference to the second photograph you posted (of the piece from Bikaner armory) - not the first photograph of the ayudha katti in the frieze...

Thank you for taking the time to highlight the details of the katar (though as best as I can ascertain, the separation of the crossbars seems to be somewhat exaggerated in the overlay). I still don't see the level of detail in the frieze as do you or Jens, but as mentioned, I am surprised at the katar's rather diminutive size. I have a European-bladed example that dates to the 17th C., and am familiar with the 19th C. Rajastani forms, but the katar depicted in the frieze appears noticeably smaller than either. Of course, as hinted to throughout this thread, much can change over the course of several centuries...

I will look forward with anticipation to the photographs following your next visit to Shimoga.

Anyway, regarding this thread, I am most grateful to see others with an interest joining in the discussion...

So I'm still waiting to hear if you are based out of B'lore... if so, it would afford me the rare opportunity of treating you to California cuisine at one of my favorite B'lore restaurants. In fact, if you can name the restaurant, I'll treat you to a Kingfisher (what's another Rs. 300 charged for a Rs. 40 beer?) as well.

I'll even give you a hint - it's off Museum Road...

Regards,

Chris

2nd March 2010, 10:20 AM	#1
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	The frieze Hello, This is from the local museum at Shimoga in Southern Karnataka, where I am based. The museum has several more friezes where the reversed blade is depicted. There is also one from the 14th C.A.D. This frieze is actually from Huliyal in Southern Karnataka. I do not have a larger snap but the zoom option on any photo editor shows the katar very well with it's twin grips too! As for your question about when the Southern kukri 'evolved' into the Ayudha Katthi', I am not sure if there was any such evolution. The reversed curved blade has been around here since the 13th C.A.D. as can be verified from dated temple architecture and I wouldn't be surprised if it was around several centuries earlier too. The reverse curved form is seen on long and short edged blades - swords, daggers (chillanum blades), ayudha kathi (medium sized blade), etc. I have an intersting reverse curved piece from the Bikaner armoury. It from it's Southern hilt style and brass construction would most probably have been brought over from the South to the Bikaner armoury after Adoni fell to the Mughals. Nidhi Attached Images Last edited by olikara; 2nd March 2010 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Cleaning Typo

2nd March 2010, 02:23 PM	#3
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Katar Jens, This particular frieze is from the 14th century AD(1300 -1399) as per the detail provided by the museum curators and I agree with it seeing the particular hair styles of the warriors, and clearly shows a katar in the horseman's waistband. Yes, this 14th C piece is the earliest representation of the Katar I have seen till date in S Indian sculpture. The other 14th C piece whose photograph I do not have at this moment, only shows a reverse curved sword and no katar. Nidhi Last edited by olikara; 2nd March 2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Clarity provided

2nd March 2010, 08:18 PM	#7
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	The Khukri and others Chris, Thank you for your detailed notes here. The Shimoga frieze as per my understanding shows a medium length recurved sword and certainly not a bichwa as can be understood from the way that the grip is clutched. I agree with you in full measure that many forms what we call 'indigenous' may not be so and you have rightly narrated the case of the 'Indians' of North America. Here it is very important to know if we have older representations of the Khukri in Nepali or Eastern Indian art and can show it's time trail. I am not sure if Spiral is around but he can surely help us here. Much of the Nepalese nobility had origins in North India after the Muslim incursions and weapon form transfer may have taken place from India to Nepal too. You raised a very important question here of typology and if we can relate it to hilt or blade form. I'd go with the blade any time as it is the one distinguishing factor for an edged weapon, but others would have their own views. Chris, temple friezes are the most important method to understand Indian weaponry and it's evolution over time and this is an aspect that has not been studied very hard so far. So your thread is an outstanding piece to understand this evolution. I have attached a pic of the frieze with the katar highlighted for you. I intend to visit the museum again later this week and take better and more pictures of this frieze as it is undoubtedly an important one from both the sword as well as the katar perspective. Maybe we shall be clearer here with better pictures of both. Nidhi Attached Images

2nd March 2010, 12:40 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nidhi, thank you for posting the picture, it is the earliest image I have seen of a katar, and it looks as if it is fully developed. Is a katar shown on the frieze from the 14 C.A.D.? Jens

2nd March 2010, 04:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nidhi, Thank you for clarifying this. It is most interesting, as Ibn Batutta in 1332, in his memoirs, described how a friend of his was killed with a katar at the south west coast of India. The katar shown on the frieze is fully developed, like we know them to day, so that it was fully developed at that time, must mean it is older than 14 century – very few weapons, if any at all, have been unchanged, or almost unchanged, for such a long period. Jens

2nd March 2010, 06:04 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nidhi, Regarding what I perceive as an evolution of form, the (what appears to be a) bichwa you show above, while indeed 'reverse-curved,' is much later than the examples depicted in the friezes, is it not? I have always been under the impression that the recurved daggers, such as the bichwa and chillanum, are indeed an indigenous development within the Indian subcontinent, while the forward-curved blades are not. Maybe this is conjecture, though it is most certainly supported by the known introduction of the forward-curved kopis to India in the 4th century BCE. By contrast, at least AFAIK, there is no documentation - in art or history - of the introduction of a recurved blade form from elsewhere outside India. I am thusly cautious about the use of "indigenous" in the description of the ayudha katti (in the form we recognize it today). The "indiegenous" people of North America in truth migrated across the Bering Straight at one point in antiquity. It is for this reason I look to answer the question regarding the possible evolution of form: the temple friezes in Halebidu are the earliest depiction of the kukri I have seen in South India. The frieze from Shimoga - according to the curators as per your post - were constructed a good two centuries later. I guess one could argue it is a matter of semantics, but I would tend to disagree - as the "kink" of the ayudha katti occurs on the interior (cutting) edge, while the "kukri kink" in addition occurs on the spine - IMO the clear identifying factor in the Hoysala friezes. The depictions on the friezes in Shimoga and Halebidu illustrate this difference nicely IMO. On the other hand, I think the hilt treatment depicted in the Halebidu sculptures does more somewhat resemble the ayudha katti in its modern form, but that itself begs the question: is typology more closely tied to blade form, or hilt form? So anyway, you mention you are based in S. India... B'lore? Maybe you'll consider getting together for a temple day trip upon our next return... Regards, Chris

2nd March 2010, 06:34 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	As a footnote, I think that the dynamics evolution of form of both art and weapons follows the same pattern as linguistics, with regards to divergence (from a common influence) over time. In the absence of any formal study on the evolution of the kukri in S. India, these artistic architectural treasures (which predate all but the very earliest illustrated manuscripts - and how many of those from the pre-Mughal South survive to this day?) are probably the best historical depictions and documented chronology we have of contemporary weaponry at the time. Here's a close-up of both the ayudha katti and the katar in the Shimoga frieze. Maybe I don't have the eyes as you or Jens, but I am unable to discern the detail of the katar from the photo, aside from its general dimensions. What does surprise me is its rather diminutive size... Note the fuller shown in the katti above... also the classic Indian treatment of the langlets on the straight-edged sword in the same frieze.

2nd March 2010, 09:41 PM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nidhi, The bichwa I mentioned was in reference to the second photograph you posted (of the piece from Bikaner armory) - not the first photograph of the ayudha katti in the frieze... Thank you for taking the time to highlight the details of the katar (though as best as I can ascertain, the separation of the crossbars seems to be somewhat exaggerated in the overlay). I still don't see the level of detail in the frieze as do you or Jens, but as mentioned, I am surprised at the katar's rather diminutive size. I have a European-bladed example that dates to the 17th C., and am familiar with the 19th C. Rajastani forms, but the katar depicted in the frieze appears noticeably smaller than either. Of course, as hinted to throughout this thread, much can change over the course of several centuries... I will look forward with anticipation to the photographs following your next visit to Shimoga. Anyway, regarding this thread, I am most grateful to see others with an interest joining in the discussion... So I'm still waiting to hear if you are based out of B'lore... if so, it would afford me the rare opportunity of treating you to California cuisine at one of my favorite B'lore restaurants. In fact, if you can name the restaurant, I'll treat you to a Kingfisher (what's another Rs. 300 charged for a Rs. 40 beer?) as well. I'll even give you a hint - it's off Museum Road... Regards, Chris