For those who love African swords

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2010, 06:37 PM

As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2010, 08:05 PM

I guess Africanized would be the P.C. description, because all the components are usually not entirely native with the blades typically foreign.
I had never really thought of that since trade blades have been a common denominator in virtually all colonized countries and cultures. I suppose that philosophically the African classification might be recouped if the weapon was produced in Africa by native craftsmen

even with foreign components.

In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like. While the Tuaregs of course are also of these regions, the takouba is characteristically with straight broadsword blade. The exception, which has been presented through field study by Lee Jones, are the curved blade examples which are termed 'aljuinar'. These seem to have utilized trade blades of somewhat similar origin as the curved blades on the Mandinka sabres, and I have seen German, even British, examples in addition to the French.

I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally.
I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations.
Perhaps our linguists might know of local terms for these swords, or if they might confirm the term noted.

Obviously there is not a great deal of information known on these swords and it would be great to see this develop as a resource reflecting the clearly established knowledge out there.

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2010, 09:07 PM

Not as long or heavy as European bladed versions. Thin flexible and razor sharp.

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2010, 11:38 PM

Interesting to see the native blade, which is indeed much shorter.

As Gav has noted, there seems to be a great deal of symbolic potential in the structural elements of the pommel, and the pyramidal shape is apparantly quite atypical. Most of the examples seem to have spherical knob type pommels with structural graduation supporting them.
Another point of observation, has anyone considered the obvious flared scabbard tip which is consistant on these, and compares to the scabbards of the Sudanese kaskara...........it is interesting the note that the Tuareg takouba which is of course thoroughly present across continguous Sahara regions does not adopt that characteristic.

Best regards,
Jim

Martin Lubojacky · 28th February 2010, 12:21 AM

Gav, your Malinke sword is very nice and I think the flared end of the scabbard is longer (and nicer) than average. I am lucky owner of two such swords - one of them is furnished with relatively long, but tender locally made blade. Unfortunately, I could post the photo earliest in July.
Martin

Gavin Nugent · 28th February 2010, 01:14 AM

Lew, Jim, Tim and Martin, thanks all for contributing to the thread. Although there may be a lot of going over old ground, I think with the knowledge base there could be some "new" developments in relation to these swords and their symbolism and workmanship in historical context or at least finer detail on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

Thank you for sharing that blade Tim. Whilst I undersand your comment in a pure context, I can't say I agree with it in full. My thoughts would be if an African community in the day, traded for a blade where ever it was from in the world and wanted to dress it in their traditional manner and from the average man to the wealthiest man to use it in this manner, I would call it African, they have adopted it, the element of the blade does not remain seperate

So many weapons from so many periods across so many counrties have always adopted trade blades and called the sword their own, to list examples would fill this page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like.

I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally.
I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations.

All the best,
Jim

I too had never seen a local blade in dress until now thank you Tim.
Jim, outstanding point of reference with native tounges thank you!! I too have always seen aspects of Oman, particuarly in the hilt manufacturing methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Not as long or heavy as European bladed versions. Thin flexible and razor sharp.

Reading your description being thin flexible and razor sharp, the same can be said for the narrow French blades, they are like a rapier, although curved, are thin flexible and razor sharp.
The example you provided is interesting and thank you for putting forth a local blade. The dress it is found in however, to my eyes lacks patina and old world craftsmanship, it is a newer sword made in the style of old or from a different region? I'll get these blade measurements down for the next post to see how they compare to a local blade...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Gav, your Malinke sword is very nice and I think the flared end of the scabbard is longer (and nicer) than average. I am lucky owner of two such swords - one of them is furnished with relatively long, but tender locally made blade. Unfortunately, I could post the photo earliest in July.
Martin

Thank you Martin, I look forward to viewing yours when you can and hearing your input.

I too have a whole list of items for discussion and will get back here as soon as I can....I love a good discussion

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2010, 04:28 AM

Guys,

I have been looking a lot deeper in to these swords and as yet I can not find any native blades of genuine antiquity. All pre 1900 examples thus far seem to be European trade blades.
Can anyone point me to any in museums or personal collections that may house native made blades within this type of dress?

Thanks

Gav

Lew · 9th March 2010, 05:29 AM

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 29th March 2010, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

G'day Lew.

My understanding is that these swords with European blades, whilst most likely used for real fighting and up for the job, were actually used as a status symbol and as dress swords to show high status and wealth, I guess untimately this is "show" sword...

That being said, this to me wouldn't place a native blade in the "show" category.

Did native blades of antiquity exist in these regions?

Thoughts?

Gav

Lew · 29th March 2010, 04:45 PM

Gav

North Africa and West Africa have been influenced by the Arabs and then the Europeans going back over 500 yrs so I really can't say if ther were any actual native sword blades? I just think the native blades were copies of European blades? You do have the shotel which is a native design but the saber types were of European origins.

Btw
What I meant by native blades for show is the hilt and scabbard were made for visual appeal (status) but the thin blade had no real combat use.

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2010, 08:20 PM

In support of the native thin blade. The Dha benefits from just a touch more weight but only a touch. But much more sophisticated fullering adding a little stiffness, there is very little discernible difference in temper. The Dha is also balanced for a faster close quarter combat but essentially the blades are very similar. Like not judging a book by its cover.

27th February 2010, 09:07 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	Not as long or heavy as European bladed versions. Thin flexible and razor sharp. Attached Images

9th March 2010, 04:28 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Looking Guys, I have been looking a lot deeper in to these swords and as yet I can not find any native blades of genuine antiquity. All pre 1900 examples thus far seem to be European trade blades. Can anyone point me to any in museums or personal collections that may house native made blades within this type of dress? Thanks Gav Last edited by freebooter; 9th March 2010 at 04:41 AM.

29th March 2010, 08:20 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	In support of the native thin blade. The Dha benefits from just a touch more weight but only a touch. But much more sophisticated fullering adding a little stiffness, there is very little discernible difference in temper. The Dha is also balanced for a faster close quarter combat but essentially the blades are very similar. Like not judging a book by its cover. Attached Images

27th February 2010, 06:37 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

27th February 2010, 08:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,733	I guess Africanized would be the P.C. description, because all the components are usually not entirely native with the blades typically foreign. I had never really thought of that since trade blades have been a common denominator in virtually all colonized countries and cultures. I suppose that philosophically the African classification might be recouped if the weapon was produced in Africa by native craftsmen even with foreign components. In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like. While the Tuaregs of course are also of these regions, the takouba is characteristically with straight broadsword blade. The exception, which has been presented through field study by Lee Jones, are the curved blade examples which are termed 'aljuinar'. These seem to have utilized trade blades of somewhat similar origin as the curved blades on the Mandinka sabres, and I have seen German, even British, examples in addition to the French. I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally. I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations. Perhaps our linguists might know of local terms for these swords, or if they might confirm the term noted. Obviously there is not a great deal of information known on these swords and it would be great to see this develop as a resource reflecting the clearly established knowledge out there. All the best, Jim

27th February 2010, 11:38 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,733	Interesting to see the native blade, which is indeed much shorter. As Gav has noted, there seems to be a great deal of symbolic potential in the structural elements of the pommel, and the pyramidal shape is apparantly quite atypical. Most of the examples seem to have spherical knob type pommels with structural graduation supporting them. Another point of observation, has anyone considered the obvious flared scabbard tip which is consistant on these, and compares to the scabbards of the Sudanese kaskara...........it is interesting the note that the Tuareg takouba which is of course thoroughly present across continguous Sahara regions does not adopt that characteristic. Best regards, Jim

28th February 2010, 12:21 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 847	Gav, your Malinke sword is very nice and I think the flared end of the scabbard is longer (and nicer) than average. I am lucky owner of two such swords - one of them is furnished with relatively long, but tender locally made blade. Unfortunately, I could post the photo earliest in July. Martin

9th March 2010, 05:29 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why. Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show. Lew

29th March 2010, 04:45 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav North Africa and West Africa have been influenced by the Arabs and then the Europeans going back over 500 yrs so I really can't say if ther were any actual native sword blades? I just think the native blades were copies of European blades? You do have the shotel which is a native design but the saber types were of European origins. Btw What I meant by native blades for show is the hilt and scabbard were made for visual appeal (status) but the thin blade had no real combat use.