Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2005, 12:16 PM

Hi Louieblades,

True the Greeks were normally not heavily dressed, and that would have helped of course. If they had a closed helmet on the head, this would mean that the ‘control centre’ of the body was in a ‘steam boiler’, heated by the sun from the outside and by the energy used by fighting at the inside, which must have been unbearable and could, I think, lead to false judgements when decisions had to be taken.

At the time when the British troops were fighting in America during the revolution, the soldiers were a valuable part of the army. In India in the old times, it was not quite like that, as many of the soldiers were recruited amongst poor people, armed and sent off to the battle field, to die one way or another, as the leaders regarded the soldiers as theirs to use as they pleased, which was quite another way of thinking than they did under the American revolution.

Hi Tom/Aqtai,

I have never had such a helmet on, so I can only guess how unbearable the heat must be, but I do remember how hot it was to get into cars, before they got air conditioned, when they had been standing in the sun on a very hot summer day – one of this helmets must have been far worse, not only be course of the sun, but also be course of the energy used in the battle – running forward at full speed, swinging the sword over the head yelling ‘CHARGE’ – maybe most even reached the enemy, before they dropped

.

Yannis · 25th May 2005, 08:39 PM

Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing.

As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were.

There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born.

Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low.

Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2005, 09:35 PM

Hi Yannis,

Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it

.

Lew · 25th May 2005, 10:36 PM

Jens

Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

Lew

Yannis · 26th May 2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

I have test modern army helmet and I use to wear my motorcycle helmet in greek summer and they are both enough hot. Thank you

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2005, 09:01 AM

Hi Lew/Yannis,

Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C

.
Jens

tom hyle · 26th May 2005, 09:37 AM

I don't think I can summon up much belief that European plate armour is descended from Middle Eastern armours encountered in the crusades, both because the use of hard plates in armour in Europe predates this and seems to evolve fairly continuously, without "jumping" to an unrecognizable product; each is a relative of the last, and (more strikingly) because there seem to be significant differences in basic philosophy/design/layout between "Eastern"/Islamic armours and European ones. The shape of the plates is different (the Islamic ones are flatter and more angular/geometric; the European tend toward a more organnic/naturalistic/body-based shape), as is the way they join to each other or to the rest of the harness, as is the way that bodily joints, elbows and knees, are handled (the Islamic ones being markedly similar to only the earliest European ones; ones far predating the crusades.). It seems like two seperate/oposing streams, and if one came from the other directly It must have been very long ago (of course the first crusades were).....I think they are parrallel evolutions from distant common ancestors. BTW, AFAIK there is little or no Islamic equivalent to European full plate armour? Chainmail is said to be a Celtic invention. Is there a competing contention from/for the East?

25th May 2005, 12:16 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Louieblades, True the Greeks were normally not heavily dressed, and that would have helped of course. If they had a closed helmet on the head, this would mean that the ‘control centre’ of the body was in a ‘steam boiler’, heated by the sun from the outside and by the energy used by fighting at the inside, which must have been unbearable and could, I think, lead to false judgements when decisions had to be taken. At the time when the British troops were fighting in America during the revolution, the soldiers were a valuable part of the army. In India in the old times, it was not quite like that, as many of the soldiers were recruited amongst poor people, armed and sent off to the battle field, to die one way or another, as the leaders regarded the soldiers as theirs to use as they pleased, which was quite another way of thinking than they did under the American revolution. Hi Tom/Aqtai, I have never had such a helmet on, so I can only guess how unbearable the heat must be, but I do remember how hot it was to get into cars, before they got air conditioned, when they had been standing in the sun on a very hot summer day – one of this helmets must have been far worse, not only be course of the sun, but also be course of the energy used in the battle – running forward at full speed, swinging the sword over the head yelling ‘CHARGE’ – maybe most even reached the enemy, before they dropped.

25th May 2005, 08:39 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	wash and go Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing. As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were. There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born. Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low. Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

25th May 2005, 09:35 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Yannis, Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it.

26th May 2005, 09:01 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Lew/Yannis, Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C. Jens

26th May 2005, 09:37 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't think I can summon up much belief that European plate armour is descended from Middle Eastern armours encountered in the crusades, both because the use of hard plates in armour in Europe predates this and seems to evolve fairly continuously, without "jumping" to an unrecognizable product; each is a relative of the last, and (more strikingly) because there seem to be significant differences in basic philosophy/design/layout between "Eastern"/Islamic armours and European ones. The shape of the plates is different (the Islamic ones are flatter and more angular/geometric; the European tend toward a more organnic/naturalistic/body-based shape), as is the way they join to each other or to the rest of the harness, as is the way that bodily joints, elbows and knees, are handled (the Islamic ones being markedly similar to only the earliest European ones; ones far predating the crusades.). It seems like two seperate/oposing streams, and if one came from the other directly It must have been very long ago (of course the first crusades were).....I think they are parrallel evolutions from distant common ancestors. BTW, AFAIK there is little or no Islamic equivalent to European full plate armour? Chainmail is said to be a Celtic invention. Is there a competing contention from/for the East? Last edited by tom hyle; 26th May 2005 at 10:20 AM.

25th May 2005, 10:36 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9 Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory Lew