Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 01:48 AM

THOUGH SOME HIGH STATUS WEAPONS WERE CUSTOM MADE AS SUCH THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY THEY CAME TO BE.
I HAVE PROVENANCE ON ONE KRIS WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE WAS NOT FOR STATUS BUT USED IN BATTLE BY THE FAMILY HEAD IN HIS YOUTH. LATER WHEN THE FAMILY HAD PROSPERED AND HAD PLENTY OF WEALTH THE ELDER TOOK HIS KRIS AND HAD IT UPGRADED TO A STATUS SWORD WITH IVORY, SILVER AND THE WORKS. SO HE STILL HAD HIS OLD BATTLE SWORD BLADE AND NOW ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO LONGER FOR BATTLE IT SHOWED HIS STATUS AND WEALTH. THE MORO ALSO HELD WEAPONS IN HIGH REGARD SOMEWHAT LIKE THE KERIS IS CONSIDERED A FAMILY PUSAKA BY THE MALAY AND INDONESIAN PEOPLE.

Battara · 24th February 2010, 03:11 AM

That was very helpful Vandoo, Dimasalang, and Mross. I think my barong was made this way for one already a datu (same with my ivory kampilan).

kino · 24th February 2010, 05:57 AM

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade....
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

mross · 24th February 2010, 03:28 PM

Why is it that many think laminated blades are superior to mono-steel? They look much prettier and I whole heartily agree. I personally love the way they look, but it is an aesthetic thing and has nothing to do with functionality. Laminated blades come about because the steel used to make them has many impurities in it. The steel is folded to drive out these impurities making it suitable for sword making. Users of blades are not interested in how pretty they look but in how they perform. Prior to modern steel making methods this folding process was one of only a few ways to get quality steel. It is my theory that the polishing to show the laminations and other personalities of the steel where done as a form of advertising. The buyer could see the laminations and other activities and new that it was well made. Did they understand the metallurgy behind this? Probably not, but experienced told them that if a blade had these qualities it was a good blade that you could bet your life on. Because they did. If you take a couple of ball bearings (I’m using ball bearings because of the mention in the balisong thread) and forge to shape and heat treat it correctly it will perform as well if not better then any laminated blade. Please note the important concept here is heat treat correctly. The best steel in the world can be made useless if not heat treated correctly. As a side note a ball bearings most likely will be 52100. There is a very informative DVD by Ed Fowler on the high performance knife using this steel. I seriously doubt that many laminated blades would withstand the tests he put the blades through.

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 04:42 PM

A BIG MACHINE IN A FORIGN COUNTRY MAKES STEEL BLADES AND EXPORTS THEM TO A COUNTRY THAT STILL MAKES BLADES AT THE FORGE BY HAND. WHEN THIS MONO STEEL IS FIRST SEEN EVERYONE IS IMPRESSED AND THE SALESMEN SELL AND TRADE LOTS OF THEM. THE TRADER PRESENTS A FANCY WEAPON TO THE DATU AS A SELLING POINT TO ATTRACT OTHERS TO HIS GOODS.
LATER IT IS LEARNED THAT A MACHINE MAKES THESE BLADES NOT A SMITH OR EMPU AND NO HANDS ON RITUAL HAS BEEN PERFORMED SO THERE IS NO SPIRIT OR MAGIC IN THE BLADE. THOSE WHO WORKED AND STILL WORK AT FORGEING BLADES WERE ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE SOME MAGICAL SKILLS THAT HAD OFTEN BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS. SO JUST AS A SAMURAI WANTED A SWORD FROM A MASTER WHO WAS FAMOUS AND IN DEMAND IT IS LIKELY A DATU FELT THE SAME WAY.
THE PATTERNS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE NATURAL PROCESS OF USING SMALLER BITS OF METAL AND FOLDING THEM TOGETHER BUT SOME FOUND WAYS TO CONTROL AND DEVELOP PATTERNS. I HAVE NOT READ OF ANY POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO CERTIAN PATTERNS IN PHILIPPINE KRIS BLADES BUT HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT THERE WERE SOME JUST AS THERE ARE WITH THE INDONESIAN KERIS. THESE PATTERNS ARE A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND SHOW THE SKILL OF THE MAKER BUT I THINK THERE WAS MORE MEANING TO THEM THAN JUST LOOKING PRETTY THAT HAS BEEN LOST.
AS MENTIONED ABOVE SOME OF THE MONO STEEL DATU WEAPONS WERE MADE BY FORIGNERS WHO WANTED TO IMPRESS THE LOCAL DATU BY GIVING HIM A FANCY WEAPON TO HELP GAIN THE INSIDE TRACK FOR TRADE.
SO EVEN IF A MONO STEEL BLADE MAY BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A HAND FORGED PATTERENED BLADE THERE WERE MAGICAL, TRADITIONAL AND SPIRITUAL REASONS TO WANT A WEAPON MADE IN THE OLD WAYS.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BASED ON LOGIC BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NO WRITTEN PROOF SO THINK OF IT AS AN INTERESTING STORY NOT PROVEN FACT.

mross · 24th February 2010, 04:56 PM

Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 05:30 PM

I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday.

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade....
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

I am with you Kino. A lot of this Moro aristocrats like to show off their status on expensively ornamented swords that's including the blade. My thought when I fist saw it at the seller's web site that the blade might be a later replacement. Not that somethings wrong with it. Only my tought.

VANDOO · 25th February 2010, 05:31 PM

STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL

LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800.
TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY.

25th February 2010, 05:31 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800. TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY. Attached Images

24th February 2010, 01:48 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THOUGH SOME HIGH STATUS WEAPONS WERE CUSTOM MADE AS SUCH THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY THEY CAME TO BE. I HAVE PROVENANCE ON ONE KRIS WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE WAS NOT FOR STATUS BUT USED IN BATTLE BY THE FAMILY HEAD IN HIS YOUTH. LATER WHEN THE FAMILY HAD PROSPERED AND HAD PLENTY OF WEALTH THE ELDER TOOK HIS KRIS AND HAD IT UPGRADED TO A STATUS SWORD WITH IVORY, SILVER AND THE WORKS. SO HE STILL HAD HIS OLD BATTLE SWORD BLADE AND NOW ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO LONGER FOR BATTLE IT SHOWED HIS STATUS AND WEALTH. THE MORO ALSO HELD WEAPONS IN HIGH REGARD SOMEWHAT LIKE THE KERIS IS CONSIDERED A FAMILY PUSAKA BY THE MALAY AND INDONESIAN PEOPLE.

24th February 2010, 03:11 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	That was very helpful Vandoo, Dimasalang, and Mross. I think my barong was made this way for one already a datu (same with my ivory kampilan).

24th February 2010, 05:57 AM	#3
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards. I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors. Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade.... I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades. My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

24th February 2010, 03:28 PM	#4
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Why is it that many think laminated blades are superior to mono-steel? They look much prettier and I whole heartily agree. I personally love the way they look, but it is an aesthetic thing and has nothing to do with functionality. Laminated blades come about because the steel used to make them has many impurities in it. The steel is folded to drive out these impurities making it suitable for sword making. Users of blades are not interested in how pretty they look but in how they perform. Prior to modern steel making methods this folding process was one of only a few ways to get quality steel. It is my theory that the polishing to show the laminations and other personalities of the steel where done as a form of advertising. The buyer could see the laminations and other activities and new that it was well made. Did they understand the metallurgy behind this? Probably not, but experienced told them that if a blade had these qualities it was a good blade that you could bet your life on. Because they did. If you take a couple of ball bearings (I’m using ball bearings because of the mention in the balisong thread) and forge to shape and heat treat it correctly it will perform as well if not better then any laminated blade. Please note the important concept here is heat treat correctly. The best steel in the world can be made useless if not heat treated correctly. As a side note a ball bearings most likely will be 52100. There is a very informative DVD by Ed Fowler on the high performance knife using this steel. I seriously doubt that many laminated blades would withstand the tests he put the blades through.

24th February 2010, 04:42 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A BIG MACHINE IN A FORIGN COUNTRY MAKES STEEL BLADES AND EXPORTS THEM TO A COUNTRY THAT STILL MAKES BLADES AT THE FORGE BY HAND. WHEN THIS MONO STEEL IS FIRST SEEN EVERYONE IS IMPRESSED AND THE SALESMEN SELL AND TRADE LOTS OF THEM. THE TRADER PRESENTS A FANCY WEAPON TO THE DATU AS A SELLING POINT TO ATTRACT OTHERS TO HIS GOODS. LATER IT IS LEARNED THAT A MACHINE MAKES THESE BLADES NOT A SMITH OR EMPU AND NO HANDS ON RITUAL HAS BEEN PERFORMED SO THERE IS NO SPIRIT OR MAGIC IN THE BLADE. THOSE WHO WORKED AND STILL WORK AT FORGEING BLADES WERE ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE SOME MAGICAL SKILLS THAT HAD OFTEN BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS. SO JUST AS A SAMURAI WANTED A SWORD FROM A MASTER WHO WAS FAMOUS AND IN DEMAND IT IS LIKELY A DATU FELT THE SAME WAY. THE PATTERNS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE NATURAL PROCESS OF USING SMALLER BITS OF METAL AND FOLDING THEM TOGETHER BUT SOME FOUND WAYS TO CONTROL AND DEVELOP PATTERNS. I HAVE NOT READ OF ANY POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO CERTIAN PATTERNS IN PHILIPPINE KRIS BLADES BUT HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT THERE WERE SOME JUST AS THERE ARE WITH THE INDONESIAN KERIS. THESE PATTERNS ARE A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND SHOW THE SKILL OF THE MAKER BUT I THINK THERE WAS MORE MEANING TO THEM THAN JUST LOOKING PRETTY THAT HAS BEEN LOST. AS MENTIONED ABOVE SOME OF THE MONO STEEL DATU WEAPONS WERE MADE BY FORIGNERS WHO WANTED TO IMPRESS THE LOCAL DATU BY GIVING HIM A FANCY WEAPON TO HELP GAIN THE INSIDE TRACK FOR TRADE. SO EVEN IF A MONO STEEL BLADE MAY BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A HAND FORGED PATTERENED BLADE THERE WERE MAGICAL, TRADITIONAL AND SPIRITUAL REASONS TO WANT A WEAPON MADE IN THE OLD WAYS. THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BASED ON LOGIC BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NO WRITTEN PROOF SO THINK OF IT AS AN INTERESTING STORY NOT PROVEN FACT.

24th February 2010, 04:56 PM	#6
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

24th February 2010, 05:30 PM	#7
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday. Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.