Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

wolviex · 24th May 2005, 05:25 PM

Gentlemen!

From practical point of view, using of close helmets in hot climate might be surpised. But there is a question: if it was not practical or impossible to use in such places like Greece, then how these helmets survived there for a few hundreds years, and were still in development!? (I think about hoplite helmets). Beside in Greece were very popular hats and open helmets as well, so there were other choices in case if close helmets were useless.

But of course plate armours were hard to handle during hot weather. There are many other examples, not only from crusades. In 1410, 15th July, at Grunwald (todays north Poland) were one of the biggest battles of medieval Europe, between Polish King and allies versus Teutonic knights and knights from the rest of the Europe (al in all ca. 60 000 people). The victory was Polish not only beacause of biggest army, but while king's army was hidden in the shadows of the forest, the Army of Teutonic Knights waited on the open field in the sun and heat of the middle summer. This caused great tiredness of the knighs. So there is something dangerous in armour itself for the warrior indeed!

Regards!

Jens Nordlunde · 24th May 2005, 09:51 PM

Hi Wolviex,

It is a wonder to me that the Greek helmets were in use for so long, although they were protective, they also made sure that the one who had the helmet on could not hear very well and could only look straight ahead besides it being a ‘heat collector’. The fact that it was used over a very long period tells me that I/we still have to learn a lot about warfare in ancient times. This does not, of course only counts for the Greeks, but for all the countries in an area where the climate is very hot during the ‘fighting season’ – Greek helmets or not.

Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?

Lew · 24th May 2005, 10:35 PM

Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?[/QUOTE]

Hi Guys

The history channel has a show called battlefield detectives and on one episode the talked about the battle of monmouth in my home town during the American revolution. I seems large numbers of British troops died from heat stroke due to their heavy wool uniforms and carrying heavy gear and lack of water. The Greeks wore very little clothes a tunic light body armor such as a breast plate shin guards and arm bands along with the helmet. I'm sure their were some number of warriors who died of heat stroke but that type of armor was worn by many armies over hundreds of years so if there was a big problem with men dying of heat stroke then why was that type of armor so popular and used for so long a time? I have read that celtic warriors fought completely nude with no armor that must have kept them cool

but it is not a good idea to be running into battle with certain extremeties exposed when there are sharp swords being waved around you could end up singing a few octaves higher at the end of the day

Lew

tom hyle · 25th May 2005, 02:36 AM

An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......

Aqtai · 25th May 2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......

I think that the Crusades had an impact on European armours as a result of the Crusaders adopting Islamic armours and taking them back to Europe. By the late 11th century many types of armour had disappeared in Western Europe, the main types used by western Europeans were mail, leather armours and quilted fabric armours. Islamic Countries in addition to using these types were also using lamellar armour, both leather and iron, brigandines, kazaghands, mail camails attached to helmets, and possibly even 'mail-and-plate' armour and limb defences such as bazu-bands.

I think the basinets and 'pairs-of-plates' which appeared in 14th century Western Europe were directly infuenced by similar Islamic armours.

With regards to the Hellenic Corinthian helmet, I believe that the wearers might have suffered from heat stroke on exeptionally hot days, but this was a very rare occurance, otherwise it was a very practical helmet. After all it was used by the Greeks in one form or another from the middle of the 8th century BC up until the mid-5th century BC.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2005, 12:16 PM

Hi Louieblades,

True the Greeks were normally not heavily dressed, and that would have helped of course. If they had a closed helmet on the head, this would mean that the ‘control centre’ of the body was in a ‘steam boiler’, heated by the sun from the outside and by the energy used by fighting at the inside, which must have been unbearable and could, I think, lead to false judgements when decisions had to be taken.

At the time when the British troops were fighting in America during the revolution, the soldiers were a valuable part of the army. In India in the old times, it was not quite like that, as many of the soldiers were recruited amongst poor people, armed and sent off to the battle field, to die one way or another, as the leaders regarded the soldiers as theirs to use as they pleased, which was quite another way of thinking than they did under the American revolution.

Hi Tom/Aqtai,

I have never had such a helmet on, so I can only guess how unbearable the heat must be, but I do remember how hot it was to get into cars, before they got air conditioned, when they had been standing in the sun on a very hot summer day – one of this helmets must have been far worse, not only be course of the sun, but also be course of the energy used in the battle – running forward at full speed, swinging the sword over the head yelling ‘CHARGE’ – maybe most even reached the enemy, before they dropped

.

Yannis · 25th May 2005, 08:39 PM

Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing.

As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were.

There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born.

Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low.

Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

24th May 2005, 10:35 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?[/QUOTE] Hi Guys The history channel has a show called battlefield detectives and on one episode the talked about the battle of monmouth in my home town during the American revolution. I seems large numbers of British troops died from heat stroke due to their heavy wool uniforms and carrying heavy gear and lack of water. The Greeks wore very little clothes a tunic light body armor such as a breast plate shin guards and arm bands along with the helmet. I'm sure their were some number of warriors who died of heat stroke but that type of armor was worn by many armies over hundreds of years so if there was a big problem with men dying of heat stroke then why was that type of armor so popular and used for so long a time? I have read that celtic warriors fought completely nude with no armor that must have kept them cool but it is not a good idea to be running into battle with certain extremeties exposed when there are sharp swords being waved around you could end up singing a few octaves higher at the end of the day Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 24th May 2005 at 10:51 PM.

25th May 2005, 12:16 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Louieblades, True the Greeks were normally not heavily dressed, and that would have helped of course. If they had a closed helmet on the head, this would mean that the ‘control centre’ of the body was in a ‘steam boiler’, heated by the sun from the outside and by the energy used by fighting at the inside, which must have been unbearable and could, I think, lead to false judgements when decisions had to be taken. At the time when the British troops were fighting in America during the revolution, the soldiers were a valuable part of the army. In India in the old times, it was not quite like that, as many of the soldiers were recruited amongst poor people, armed and sent off to the battle field, to die one way or another, as the leaders regarded the soldiers as theirs to use as they pleased, which was quite another way of thinking than they did under the American revolution. Hi Tom/Aqtai, I have never had such a helmet on, so I can only guess how unbearable the heat must be, but I do remember how hot it was to get into cars, before they got air conditioned, when they had been standing in the sun on a very hot summer day – one of this helmets must have been far worse, not only be course of the sun, but also be course of the energy used in the battle – running forward at full speed, swinging the sword over the head yelling ‘CHARGE’ – maybe most even reached the enemy, before they dropped.

25th May 2005, 08:39 PM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	wash and go Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing. As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were. There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born. Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low. Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

24th May 2005, 05:25 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Gentlemen! From practical point of view, using of close helmets in hot climate might be surpised. But there is a question: if it was not practical or impossible to use in such places like Greece, then how these helmets survived there for a few hundreds years, and were still in development!? (I think about hoplite helmets). Beside in Greece were very popular hats and open helmets as well, so there were other choices in case if close helmets were useless. But of course plate armours were hard to handle during hot weather. There are many other examples, not only from crusades. In 1410, 15th July, at Grunwald (todays north Poland) were one of the biggest battles of medieval Europe, between Polish King and allies versus Teutonic knights and knights from the rest of the Europe (al in all ca. 60 000 people). The victory was Polish not only beacause of biggest army, but while king's army was hidden in the shadows of the forest, the Army of Teutonic Knights waited on the open field in the sun and heat of the middle summer. This caused great tiredness of the knighs. So there is something dangerous in armour itself for the warrior indeed! Regards!

24th May 2005, 09:51 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Wolviex, It is a wonder to me that the Greek helmets were in use for so long, although they were protective, they also made sure that the one who had the helmet on could not hear very well and could only look straight ahead besides it being a ‘heat collector’. The fact that it was used over a very long period tells me that I/we still have to learn a lot about warfare in ancient times. This does not, of course only counts for the Greeks, but for all the countries in an area where the climate is very hot during the ‘fighting season’ – Greek helmets or not. Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?

25th May 2005, 02:36 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......