Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

Jens Nordlunde · 24th May 2005, 03:35 PM

Hi B.I.

The reason why I chose a Green helmet is, be course it is closed, and I know it can be very warm in Greece during the summer. I could have chosen any kind of helmet used in a country where it is very hot in ‘the fighting season’ – the summer, and I have no doubt, that it can be at least as hot in India as in Greece during this period. A helmet can be a fine protection when someone bangs you on the head with a sword or a maze, but I guess it could be a curse as well in a very hot climate.

Hi Derek,

Yes the crusaders must have had a problem, and I have been wondering, how big a percentage of the dead soldiers could be expected to have die be course of the heat, not due to wounds.

Justin · 24th May 2005, 04:19 PM

I would hate to think about fighting with armour on here in Florida ,I dont think the fight would last very long.

I think though,that it would be more common for people to faint/pass out from the heat before they would die ,but in a battle the two might end up being the same thing.

B.I · 24th May 2005, 05:01 PM

maybe thats why england had such a large empire, because its so cold that we could last longer in heavy armour.
also, a good solid helmet kept off the rain.
maybe the decline of our empire, coincided with the invention of umbrellas.

wolviex · 24th May 2005, 05:25 PM

Gentlemen!

From practical point of view, using of close helmets in hot climate might be surpised. But there is a question: if it was not practical or impossible to use in such places like Greece, then how these helmets survived there for a few hundreds years, and were still in development!? (I think about hoplite helmets). Beside in Greece were very popular hats and open helmets as well, so there were other choices in case if close helmets were useless.

But of course plate armours were hard to handle during hot weather. There are many other examples, not only from crusades. In 1410, 15th July, at Grunwald (todays north Poland) were one of the biggest battles of medieval Europe, between Polish King and allies versus Teutonic knights and knights from the rest of the Europe (al in all ca. 60 000 people). The victory was Polish not only beacause of biggest army, but while king's army was hidden in the shadows of the forest, the Army of Teutonic Knights waited on the open field in the sun and heat of the middle summer. This caused great tiredness of the knighs. So there is something dangerous in armour itself for the warrior indeed!

Regards!

Jens Nordlunde · 24th May 2005, 09:51 PM

Hi Wolviex,

It is a wonder to me that the Greek helmets were in use for so long, although they were protective, they also made sure that the one who had the helmet on could not hear very well and could only look straight ahead besides it being a ‘heat collector’. The fact that it was used over a very long period tells me that I/we still have to learn a lot about warfare in ancient times. This does not, of course only counts for the Greeks, but for all the countries in an area where the climate is very hot during the ‘fighting season’ – Greek helmets or not.

Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?

Lew · 24th May 2005, 10:35 PM

Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?[/QUOTE]

Hi Guys

The history channel has a show called battlefield detectives and on one episode the talked about the battle of monmouth in my home town during the American revolution. I seems large numbers of British troops died from heat stroke due to their heavy wool uniforms and carrying heavy gear and lack of water. The Greeks wore very little clothes a tunic light body armor such as a breast plate shin guards and arm bands along with the helmet. I'm sure their were some number of warriors who died of heat stroke but that type of armor was worn by many armies over hundreds of years so if there was a big problem with men dying of heat stroke then why was that type of armor so popular and used for so long a time? I have read that celtic warriors fought completely nude with no armor that must have kept them cool

but it is not a good idea to be running into battle with certain extremeties exposed when there are sharp swords being waved around you could end up singing a few octaves higher at the end of the day

Lew

tom hyle · 25th May 2005, 02:36 AM

An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......

24th May 2005, 10:35 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?[/QUOTE] Hi Guys The history channel has a show called battlefield detectives and on one episode the talked about the battle of monmouth in my home town during the American revolution. I seems large numbers of British troops died from heat stroke due to their heavy wool uniforms and carrying heavy gear and lack of water. The Greeks wore very little clothes a tunic light body armor such as a breast plate shin guards and arm bands along with the helmet. I'm sure their were some number of warriors who died of heat stroke but that type of armor was worn by many armies over hundreds of years so if there was a big problem with men dying of heat stroke then why was that type of armor so popular and used for so long a time? I have read that celtic warriors fought completely nude with no armor that must have kept them cool but it is not a good idea to be running into battle with certain extremeties exposed when there are sharp swords being waved around you could end up singing a few octaves higher at the end of the day Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 24th May 2005 at 10:51 PM.

24th May 2005, 03:35 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi B.I. The reason why I chose a Green helmet is, be course it is closed, and I know it can be very warm in Greece during the summer. I could have chosen any kind of helmet used in a country where it is very hot in ‘the fighting season’ – the summer, and I have no doubt, that it can be at least as hot in India as in Greece during this period. A helmet can be a fine protection when someone bangs you on the head with a sword or a maze, but I guess it could be a curse as well in a very hot climate. Hi Derek, Yes the crusaders must have had a problem, and I have been wondering, how big a percentage of the dead soldiers could be expected to have die be course of the heat, not due to wounds.

24th May 2005, 04:19 PM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 179	I would hate to think about fighting with armour on here in Florida ,I dont think the fight would last very long. I think though,that it would be more common for people to faint/pass out from the heat before they would die ,but in a battle the two might end up being the same thing.

24th May 2005, 05:01 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	maybe thats why england had such a large empire, because its so cold that we could last longer in heavy armour. also, a good solid helmet kept off the rain. maybe the decline of our empire, coincided with the invention of umbrellas.

24th May 2005, 05:25 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Gentlemen! From practical point of view, using of close helmets in hot climate might be surpised. But there is a question: if it was not practical or impossible to use in such places like Greece, then how these helmets survived there for a few hundreds years, and were still in development!? (I think about hoplite helmets). Beside in Greece were very popular hats and open helmets as well, so there were other choices in case if close helmets were useless. But of course plate armours were hard to handle during hot weather. There are many other examples, not only from crusades. In 1410, 15th July, at Grunwald (todays north Poland) were one of the biggest battles of medieval Europe, between Polish King and allies versus Teutonic knights and knights from the rest of the Europe (al in all ca. 60 000 people). The victory was Polish not only beacause of biggest army, but while king's army was hidden in the shadows of the forest, the Army of Teutonic Knights waited on the open field in the sun and heat of the middle summer. This caused great tiredness of the knighs. So there is something dangerous in armour itself for the warrior indeed! Regards!

24th May 2005, 09:51 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Wolviex, It is a wonder to me that the Greek helmets were in use for so long, although they were protective, they also made sure that the one who had the helmet on could not hear very well and could only look straight ahead besides it being a ‘heat collector’. The fact that it was used over a very long period tells me that I/we still have to learn a lot about warfare in ancient times. This does not, of course only counts for the Greeks, but for all the countries in an area where the climate is very hot during the ‘fighting season’ – Greek helmets or not. Lets say you had 50’000 men out fighting a the enemy another army of 50’000 men – how many would lay on the battlefield with a heat stroke if the temperature was from 35 to 45 C within the first six hours?

25th May 2005, 02:36 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......