Ethnographic Textiles + Weapons

Tim Simmons · 13th February 2010, 06:36 PM

This cloth is a real silk one not rayon. Must have belonged or presented to a VIP.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2010, 07:00 PM

In our careers in the airline industry, my wife and I often had great opportunities to meet many people from many cultures. My wife had a management position in which she handled certain employee affairs, and one man needed to return to his home in Africa as his mother had passed away.
When he returned, in gratitude for my wifes handling of details to help him in making this trip, he very ceremoniously presented her with a bolt of cloth very similar in some of the colors Tim has shown.
I cannot recall details on tribe or country, but what was important was that the cloth itself was offered with far more reverence than afforded simply to an everyday textile, and with extremely deep gratitude and reverence.

It seems clear that in many cultures, the reverence for material culture is often well placed in many forms, and our true understanding of these offer important dimension to learning more on the weapons they used.

All best regards,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 13th February 2010, 09:58 PM

Atayal traditionally wove with rammie - a very laborious process.

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2010, 11:38 PM

For those with an interest in the relationship between weaponry and weaving, I would suggest a reading of "Iban Art -- sexual selection and severed heads" --- Michael Heppell, KIT publishers, Amsterdam, ISBN -10: 9054500050

In Iban culture hierarchical position, and the suitability for marriage was largely determined by weaving in the case of women, and the taking of heads in the case of men. Men carved the hilts of their own weapons, and this was a way of demonstrating that they were not one dimensional warriors, but also possessed a finer side.

There is far too much involved in these Iban cultural practices to be covered here, and their complexity would make any attempted abbreviation too simplistic. However, there is a distinct sexual counterbalancing between the male role as warrior and association with weaponry, and the female role as society's cohesive force.

Since Iban culture can probably be regarded as containing base elements of most, if not all, tribal cultures within the maritime cultures of South East Asia, an understanding of these base elements could be of use to those with interests specific to these cultures.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2010, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Atayal traditionally wove with rammie - a very laborious process.

Hi KuKulz,
Please pardon my adding some information on this excellent weapon, which I know you have expertise on, but there may be others (like me

who may not be aware of these weapons or terms. This very interesting weapon, which I now have found is a 'laraw', shows very nicely against this cloth.

I have read your previous comprehensive thread on the weapons of Taiwan (formerly Formosa) and the Atayal, who are the aboriginal natives there. I understand that 'rammie' is a plant fiber used in weaving scabbard straps?

I believe that the diamond type geometrics in the material represent the eye of the ancestors who are protective, the red color represents blood & power, and the horizontal lines have to do also with the spirits of ancestors. Obviously this is material I am just now searching, so I would defer to you and others who specialize in this field for more accurate descriptions.

These weapons certainly show well against traditional textiles!

All best regards,
Jim

yuanzhumin · 14th February 2010, 03:45 AM

Jim, the Atayal were forming one officially recognized tribe till few years ago, then the Truku and the Sedeq were recognized as distinct groups from the rest of the Atayal. The Atayalic groups are only present in the northern part of the island. The island is occupied by 10 other austronesian tribes such as the Paiwan, the Bunun, the Puyuma, the Rukai...). These are mountains and plains austronesian groups. In addition, a little island south of Taiwan (Botel Tobago/Orchid Island/Lanyu) is inhabited by another tribe, the Yami/Tawu who is distinct because of its oceanic culture. In fact, the rammie is widely used as a textile fiber among the aborigines tribes of Taiwan and is also used to make scabbard straps, but not only. Scabbard straps can also be made of rattan or bamboo (see some photos in the Yang Grevot Collections). Concerning the design and the colors, you are right but the red color is also used to protect against the bad spirit and the diamond patterns is also representing the ancestor snake skin pattern.

Kukulza, nice traditional textile ! Really matching the knife.

Maisey, yes, in Taiwan also, textiles making is exclusively the work of women, and their skills in this matter are highly appreciated, while the knives and their use such as head hunting is only the privilege of the men who are decorating the scabbards and the hilts. The hierarchy and the order in the Taiwan tribal society was largely based on this sharing of the traditional roles.

I don't have pictures of my weapons with a matching textiles, but I have something here that is very close in the idea : a special bag that the Atayal warriors used to place the severed heads on their way back from a head hunting party. See the link http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=261

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2010, 01:22 PM

Another region.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Jim, the Atayal were forming one officially recognized tribe till few years ago, then the Truku and the Sedeq were recognized as distinct groups from the rest of the Atayal. The Atayalic groups are only present in the northern part of the island. The island is occupied by 10 other austronesian tribes such as the Paiwan, the Bunun, the Puyuma, the Rukai...). These are mountains and plains austronesian groups. In addition, a little island south of Taiwan (Botel Tobago/Orchid Island/Lanyu) is inhabited by another tribe, the Yami/Tawu who is distinct because of its oceanic culture. In fact, the rammie is widely used as a textile fiber among the aborigines tribes of Taiwan and is also used to make scabbard straps, but not only. Scabbard straps can also be made of rattan or bamboo (see some photos in the Yang Grevot Collections). Concerning the design and the colors, you are right but the red color is also used to protect against the bad spirit and the diamond patterns is also representing the ancestor snake skin pattern.

Kukulza, nice traditional textile ! Really matching the knife.

Maisey, yes, in Taiwan also, textiles making is exclusively the work of women, and their skills in this matter are highly appreciated, while the knives and their use such as head hunting is only the privilege of the men who are decorating the scabbards and the hilts. The hierarchy and the order in the Taiwan tribal society was largely based on this sharing of the traditional roles.

I don't have pictures of my weapons with a matching textiles, but I have something here that is very close in the idea : a special bag that the Atayal warriors used to place the severed heads on their way back from a head hunting party. See the link http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=261

Thank you so much Yuanzhumin for this more detailed information, thats exactly what I was hoping for!! While it is wonderful looking at these impressive groupings of weapons with these materials as great displays, I always want to know more beyond aesthetics. I guess its just the anthropologist wanna be in me

It helps a lot seeing the designs and patterns in these textiles to know about the symbolism involved, such as the diamond pattern and red color.

All best regards,
Jim

Dom · 3rd March 2010, 10:33 AM

Hi Gentlemen

some of my ethnographic arms and items, mainly from Middle-East
associated with a typical Persian carpet ... Kashan

all the best

à +

Dom

13th February 2010, 06:36 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This cloth is a real silk one not rayon. Must have belonged or presented to a VIP. Attached Images

14th February 2010, 01:22 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Another region. Attached Images

3rd March 2010, 10:33 AM	#9
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Gentlemen some of my ethnographic arms and items, mainly from Middle-East associated with a typical Persian carpet ... Kashan all the best à + Dom Attached Images

13th February 2010, 07:00 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In our careers in the airline industry, my wife and I often had great opportunities to meet many people from many cultures. My wife had a management position in which she handled certain employee affairs, and one man needed to return to his home in Africa as his mother had passed away. When he returned, in gratitude for my wifes handling of details to help him in making this trip, he very ceremoniously presented her with a bolt of cloth very similar in some of the colors Tim has shown. I cannot recall details on tribe or country, but what was important was that the cloth itself was offered with far more reverence than afforded simply to an everyday textile, and with extremely deep gratitude and reverence. It seems clear that in many cultures, the reverence for material culture is often well placed in many forms, and our true understanding of these offer important dimension to learning more on the weapons they used. All best regards, Jim

13th February 2010, 09:58 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Atayal traditionally wove with rammie - a very laborious process.

13th February 2010, 11:38 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	For those with an interest in the relationship between weaponry and weaving, I would suggest a reading of "Iban Art -- sexual selection and severed heads" --- Michael Heppell, KIT publishers, Amsterdam, ISBN -10: 9054500050 In Iban culture hierarchical position, and the suitability for marriage was largely determined by weaving in the case of women, and the taking of heads in the case of men. Men carved the hilts of their own weapons, and this was a way of demonstrating that they were not one dimensional warriors, but also possessed a finer side. There is far too much involved in these Iban cultural practices to be covered here, and their complexity would make any attempted abbreviation too simplistic. However, there is a distinct sexual counterbalancing between the male role as warrior and association with weaponry, and the female role as society's cohesive force. Since Iban culture can probably be regarded as containing base elements of most, if not all, tribal cultures within the maritime cultures of South East Asia, an understanding of these base elements could be of use to those with interests specific to these cultures.

14th February 2010, 03:45 AM	#6
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Jim, the Atayal were forming one officially recognized tribe till few years ago, then the Truku and the Sedeq were recognized as distinct groups from the rest of the Atayal. The Atayalic groups are only present in the northern part of the island. The island is occupied by 10 other austronesian tribes such as the Paiwan, the Bunun, the Puyuma, the Rukai...). These are mountains and plains austronesian groups. In addition, a little island south of Taiwan (Botel Tobago/Orchid Island/Lanyu) is inhabited by another tribe, the Yami/Tawu who is distinct because of its oceanic culture. In fact, the rammie is widely used as a textile fiber among the aborigines tribes of Taiwan and is also used to make scabbard straps, but not only. Scabbard straps can also be made of rattan or bamboo (see some photos in the Yang Grevot Collections). Concerning the design and the colors, you are right but the red color is also used to protect against the bad spirit and the diamond patterns is also representing the ancestor snake skin pattern. Kukulza, nice traditional textile ! Really matching the knife. Maisey, yes, in Taiwan also, textiles making is exclusively the work of women, and their skills in this matter are highly appreciated, while the knives and their use such as head hunting is only the privilege of the men who are decorating the scabbards and the hilts. The hierarchy and the order in the Taiwan tribal society was largely based on this sharing of the traditional roles. I don't have pictures of my weapons with a matching textiles, but I have something here that is very close in the idea : a special bag that the Atayal warriors used to place the severed heads on their way back from a head hunting party. See the link http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=261