Gilded and painted Keris for viewing

gwirya · 2nd February 2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can see nothing unusual at all in this blade.

The garap is fair average quality for a Bali blade of this vintage. There are minor artistic shortcomings that really do not bear mention, and can simply be written off as the maker's style.

To my eyes its just a pretty usual sort of old Bali blade.

What makes the whole thing nice is the old blade + old sunggingan in pretty good condition + the sunggingan is well preserved + the blade has what appears to be a nice old stain + the hilt is not bad either. As a total package its pretty nice and very scarce.

Alan, I am very interested in Bali keris, can you point out where is the minor artistic shortcomings? and what could you expect from the keris above if it is a better quality balinese keris. I know it could be subjective but I want to learn to distinguish small detail garaps that make up the "more than average" keris.

Thx

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2010, 09:35 PM

Gwirya, if I had the keris in my hand, and you were sitting beside me, yes, I could show you the things that could have been done better. However, to try to tell you in writing the individual artistic deficiencies would run to far more than I am prepared to write.

I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow.

Its just not top work from an artistic point of view.

But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

gwirya · 4th February 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow.

Its just not top work from an artistic point of view.

But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

Alan, Which part is where there are curved lines where there should be straight lines?

Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2010, 10:28 PM

It is not as simple as that, Gwirya.

We are talking micro here, not macro. To adequately answer your question I would need to be sitting with you and point out the defects one by one, and I would be using something small and pointed to do the pointing. Good garap and artistic interpretation in a keris is all about very, very tiny things.

However, there is one area of this keris where the carving has been very badly handled, and it is big enough not to need any particular expertise to identify.

Look at the convergence of the ada-ada - blumbangan - tampingan. From an artistic perspective this is very poor work.

Defects in the kembang kacang puguk are pretty obvious too.

When I look at this blade my feeling is that the maker was struggling, his work does not flow. It is competent work, but there is no artistic feeling to it.

I'm not going to comment any further on this blade.

I did not want to make these comments that I have made. If I had wanted to comment thus, and if I had thought it would have served a useful purpose I would have commented in my earlier posts.

This type of criticism should be reserved for blades where it is obvious that the maker has attempted art.

The maker of this blade has not attempted art and has simply produced a blade of the required form, with no particular attention to art or detail. He has made a weapon.

It is very unfair to criticise something for not being that which it did not set out to be.

Gavin Nugent · 4th February 2010, 11:22 PM

Alan,

Thank you for your wonderful and very well worded input on the subject of this Keris.

Since Gwirya has come to this posting asking these questions, in the interest of learning a little more myself I too have a few questions that are or are not answered easily.

Are you able to point to visual aids within the forum pages that can show the "change" for want of a better word, where art and the weapon meet as one? A visual aid may show an essence within lines and features that can be used as a comparision to better understand subtle differences that are hard to speak of.
In an artist light, does the painting and gilding sit in line with the lack of artistic detail to the blade or does it "mask" these subtle shortcomings of an artistic nature.

Thank you for your learned input.

Gav

Rick · 4th February 2010, 11:53 PM

....ask me; but I wanted to respond anyway .

< insert opinion here >

I would think that the paint and gilding certainly helped to sell the keris .

IMO the luks seem ungainly where they could have been so much more gracefully executed by a better smith .

Aesthetically, I hear a mental 'clank' when I view the entire blade .

Gav, I do not mean to offend; its just my opinion mate .

Regardless of the aesthetics of the wilah it is an old and rare piece and needs to be respected for what it is .

gwirya · 5th February 2010, 04:31 PM

Thanks for the guidance Alan, it seems pretty clear to me now. At the first time I looked at the blade, It seemed like a nice old blade with good metal ( padat and halus) but there is something a little off which I didnt know what it was.
@Rick, maybe the empu was to old to make such detail in refining the blade ricikan artistically. even Pak Sukamdi now cannot make a keris as nice as he used to, as his hand trembles.

4th February 2010, 11:22 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Great input Alan, Thank you for your wonderful and very well worded input on the subject of this Keris. Since Gwirya has come to this posting asking these questions, in the interest of learning a little more myself I too have a few questions that are or are not answered easily. Are you able to point to visual aids within the forum pages that can show the "change" for want of a better word, where art and the weapon meet as one? A visual aid may show an essence within lines and features that can be used as a comparision to better understand subtle differences that are hard to speak of. In an artist light, does the painting and gilding sit in line with the lack of artistic detail to the blade or does it "mask" these subtle shortcomings of an artistic nature. Thank you for your learned input. Gav

4th February 2010, 11:53 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	I Know You Didn't .... ....ask me; but I wanted to respond anyway . < insert opinion here > I would think that the paint and gilding certainly helped to sell the keris . IMO the luks seem ungainly where they could have been so much more gracefully executed by a better smith . Aesthetically, I hear a mental 'clank' when I view the entire blade . Gav, I do not mean to offend; its just my opinion mate . Regardless of the aesthetics of the wilah it is an old and rare piece and needs to be respected for what it is . Last edited by Rick; 5th February 2010 at 02:39 AM.

2nd February 2010, 09:35 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,134	Gwirya, if I had the keris in my hand, and you were sitting beside me, yes, I could show you the things that could have been done better. However, to try to tell you in writing the individual artistic deficiencies would run to far more than I am prepared to write. I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow. Its just not top work from an artistic point of view. But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

4th February 2010, 10:28 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,134	It is not as simple as that, Gwirya. We are talking micro here, not macro. To adequately answer your question I would need to be sitting with you and point out the defects one by one, and I would be using something small and pointed to do the pointing. Good garap and artistic interpretation in a keris is all about very, very tiny things. However, there is one area of this keris where the carving has been very badly handled, and it is big enough not to need any particular expertise to identify. Look at the convergence of the ada-ada - blumbangan - tampingan. From an artistic perspective this is very poor work. Defects in the kembang kacang puguk are pretty obvious too. When I look at this blade my feeling is that the maker was struggling, his work does not flow. It is competent work, but there is no artistic feeling to it. I'm not going to comment any further on this blade. I did not want to make these comments that I have made. If I had wanted to comment thus, and if I had thought it would have served a useful purpose I would have commented in my earlier posts. This type of criticism should be reserved for blades where it is obvious that the maker has attempted art. The maker of this blade has not attempted art and has simply produced a blade of the required form, with no particular attention to art or detail. He has made a weapon. It is very unfair to criticise something for not being that which it did not set out to be.

5th February 2010, 04:31 PM	#7
gwirya Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15	Thanks for the guidance Alan, it seems pretty clear to me now. At the first time I looked at the blade, It seemed like a nice old blade with good metal ( padat and halus) but there is something a little off which I didnt know what it was. @Rick, maybe the empu was to old to make such detail in refining the blade ricikan artistically. even Pak Sukamdi now cannot make a keris as nice as he used to, as his hand trembles.