What On Earth Pt. 2

CourseEight · 29th January 2010, 08:51 PM

130 cm is 51.2 inches, or about 4 and a quarter ft.

mross · 29th January 2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

130 cm is 51.2 inches, or about 4 and a quarter ft.

Yep your right miscounted, never did like metric, that must be where the extra pounds are hiding. So it's bigger then a kaskara, here is one it's not bigger then, the weight is still a bit high;

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-216-...and-sword.aspx

fearn · 30th January 2010, 01:59 AM

Wanna bet that the pommel is lead? That weight is high for steel.

katana · 30th January 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Wanna bet that the pommel is lead? That weight is high for steel.

Hi Fearn,
working from the dimensions given....and scaling the hilt so as to be able to get the dimensions of the grip and pommel...I have roughly deduced this ...

The hilt is approx 30cms long, therefore the blade is 100cms (1m). Density of steel is 7.8grams per cubic centimetre.

Blade 100cms x 6cms x 0.6cms ( 1/4") should be approx 6.2 lbs. (as the edges taper it would be less than this, so probably nearer 4 lbs would be more accurate)

If the blade was slightly thicker (at the mid rib )

100 X 6 x 0.8 (1/3 ") the weight should be approx 8.2 lbs again due to blade taper to the edge would mean 5 lbs or slightly less would be more accurate.

The hilt is approx 30 cms long, handle section 24 cms the pommel 6cms diameter. The volume of the hilt is approx. 328 cms cubed.

If solid steel it should weigh 5.5lbs (which would include the tang as it would be the 'same' material)

If solid lead it should weigh 8.2 lbs (because it would not be 'solid' lead because some of the volume would be taken by the tang which would be the lighter density steel/iron......lead is 11.4 grams per cm cubed....so would be less than 8.2 lbs dependant on the size of the tang)

So....if the blade is around 1/4" thick at the midrib.... the hilt would have to weigh around 8 lbs

if the blade is 8mm thick at the mid rib, the hilt should weigh around 7lbs

So if a betting man.....its a sure fire bet that the hilt is completely or substantially composed of lead.

Have Chinese swords ever used lead for hilts, if not, Africa (possibly) could be the source... as I have seen a 'status' sword with a lead hilt.

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2010, 01:04 PM

Incredible forensics there David!!!!

That is amazing detail, which you always present so well. I think this would be thinking inside the box!

so it seems you are a master of that, outside the box, and circles around the box!!

I must admit I really admire you guys and these mathematical observations, while all I can rely on is my pretty much free association instincts. I agree that this hilt seems cast, and lead would be a quite likely candidate.

Although the geometric device that comprises the neck type section between blade and hilt may be stylistically similar to such symbols in many places, it would be hard to say that these influences did not enter the presumed African tribal sphere via many avenues of trade contact. These kinds of symbolic elements are well known in art and material culture in Saharan regions to the east (see "Africa Adorned", Angela Fisher, a great work on jewelry and its symbolism in Africa). The cross of varying types is well known, and rather than religiously observed, often refers to the four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west.

This symbolic device placed at the root of the blade, as David has noted, resembles geometric symbols seen in these regions, and as the bearing sword in ceremony would be held upright with blade up, suggesting the arising or power of the blade out of the symbol, in metaphoric sense.
It should be noted that many of the falchion type swords out of the Congo/Zaire regions use this effect on thier blades with an open, bisected disc shape between the blade and hilt.

At the point in the blade above the 'nagan curve' there are what appear to be serrations on both sides of the blade, as seen on the Dahomean ceremonial swords known as 'hwi' (see "African Arms & Armour" C. Spring, and the reference to Palau Marti).

I'm not sure if this would be a trade blade, though the suggestion is well placed. The African swordsmiths seem to have long been underestimated in thier skills, as evidenced by the many elaborate shapes and styles of the blades produced there. The copper wire is also a feature often seen on the swords of Condo/Zaire regions and others in various tribal regions.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 30th January 2010, 02:36 PM

Hmmm, I still say Chinese, the serpentine blade, the coin motif, the structure, the size, the cross guard has the same patern found on rectangular Tibatan sword guards....the hide and copper wire have no patina so maybe it was someones interperatation of something from Africa? Although I am sure there are super quality and well finished African swords etc out there, weren't most trade blades and native crafted pieces? This seems to be lacking either of these African facets.

David you calculations put it in better perspective to me as being a ceremonial spear head from China.

That's 4 cents now!!

Gav

Jim McDougall · 31st January 2010, 06:33 PM

Ooops!!!
Up until now I hadnt noticed the Asian influence here, but until Gav noted this, that circle symbol is a Chinese coin motif!!!! I believe it is present on some Chinese swords as a symbolic motif in 17th-18th century Chinese swords, and the architectural structure of the square element at the neck seems Asian as noted as well.
The conundrum thickens, and I'd like to find that symbol in the Chinese sphere or examples of the type of coin it appears on, as well as its meaning.
Again, it always is amazing how these worlds apart were connected via trade.

All best regards,
Jim

30th January 2010, 02:36 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I still say Hmmm, I still say Chinese, the serpentine blade, the coin motif, the structure, the size, the cross guard has the same patern found on rectangular Tibatan sword guards....the hide and copper wire have no patina so maybe it was someones interperatation of something from Africa? Although I am sure there are super quality and well finished African swords etc out there, weren't most trade blades and native crafted pieces? This seems to be lacking either of these African facets. David you calculations put it in better perspective to me as being a ceremonial spear head from China. That's 4 cents now!! Gav

29th January 2010, 08:51 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	130 cm is 51.2 inches, or about 4 and a quarter ft.

30th January 2010, 01:59 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Wanna bet that the pommel is lead? That weight is high for steel.

30th January 2010, 01:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Incredible forensics there David!!!! That is amazing detail, which you always present so well. I think this would be thinking inside the box! so it seems you are a master of that, outside the box, and circles around the box!! I must admit I really admire you guys and these mathematical observations, while all I can rely on is my pretty much free association instincts. I agree that this hilt seems cast, and lead would be a quite likely candidate. Although the geometric device that comprises the neck type section between blade and hilt may be stylistically similar to such symbols in many places, it would be hard to say that these influences did not enter the presumed African tribal sphere via many avenues of trade contact. These kinds of symbolic elements are well known in art and material culture in Saharan regions to the east (see "Africa Adorned", Angela Fisher, a great work on jewelry and its symbolism in Africa). The cross of varying types is well known, and rather than religiously observed, often refers to the four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west. This symbolic device placed at the root of the blade, as David has noted, resembles geometric symbols seen in these regions, and as the bearing sword in ceremony would be held upright with blade up, suggesting the arising or power of the blade out of the symbol, in metaphoric sense. It should be noted that many of the falchion type swords out of the Congo/Zaire regions use this effect on thier blades with an open, bisected disc shape between the blade and hilt. At the point in the blade above the 'nagan curve' there are what appear to be serrations on both sides of the blade, as seen on the Dahomean ceremonial swords known as 'hwi' (see "African Arms & Armour" C. Spring, and the reference to Palau Marti). I'm not sure if this would be a trade blade, though the suggestion is well placed. The African swordsmiths seem to have long been underestimated in thier skills, as evidenced by the many elaborate shapes and styles of the blades produced there. The copper wire is also a feature often seen on the swords of Condo/Zaire regions and others in various tribal regions. All best regards, Jim

31st January 2010, 06:33 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Ooops!!! Up until now I hadnt noticed the Asian influence here, but until Gav noted this, that circle symbol is a Chinese coin motif!!!! I believe it is present on some Chinese swords as a symbolic motif in 17th-18th century Chinese swords, and the architectural structure of the square element at the neck seems Asian as noted as well. The conundrum thickens, and I'd like to find that symbol in the Chinese sphere or examples of the type of coin it appears on, as well as its meaning. Again, it always is amazing how these worlds apart were connected via trade. All best regards, Jim