Very Old Moro Kris

[Ian]

When I put this one next to the other old Moro kris in the pictures above, it seemed to me that the gangya may actually be complete. So I polished the reverse side in the gangya area to remove some of the heavy patina. For a short distance I can identify a horizontal line meeting a section of an angled line where the gangya separation should be. It is very faint and only visible with a magnifying glass. I believe the gangya is actually intact and not missing its top half as I stated earlier. This is consistent with Moro work where the line of separation can be very hard to distinguish sometimes.

Acknowledging opinions above to the contrary, I believe this blade is just too well forged and the luks too symmetrical around the median ridge for it not to have been made in its host culture. This has not been forged by an alien group in the image of a Moro kris. What I think is throwing people off is the file work (or lack thereof), the extensive corrosion of the gangya area, and the likelihood that the gangya was modified by another hand. The "trunk" area, in particular, appears to have been filed down and altered.

Rick: I can't find my calipers to measure the thickness of the blade. Will get back to you when I locate them.

Ian.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Ian

When I put this one next to the other old Moro kris in the pictures above, it seemed to me that the gangya may actually be complete. So I polished the reverse side in the gangya area to remove some of the heavy patina. For a short distance I can identify a horizontal line meeting a section of an angled line where the gangya separation should be. It is very faint and only visible with a magnifying glass. I believe the gangya is actually intact and not missing its top half as I stated earlier. This is consistent with Moro work where the line of separation can be very hard to distinguish sometimes.

Acknowledging opinions above to the contrary, I believe this blade is just too well forged and the luks too symmetrical around the median ridge for it not to have been made in its host culture. This has not been forged by an alien group in the image of a Moro kris. What I think is throwing people off is the file work (or lack thereof), the extensive corrosion of the gangya area, and the likelihood that the gangya was modified by another hand. The "trunk" area, in particular, appears to have been filed down and altered.

Rick: I can't find my calipers to measure the thickness of the blade. Will get back to you when I locate them.

Ian.

So there is a separate gangya .
Okay , watch me flip flop .

That throws out the possibility of a foreign trade piece (at least for me) .
Now the question is why would someone alter the trunk area ?
Could this sword have been excavated a long time ago and corrosion had done the damage .
Maybe this is an unfinished work as has been mentioned earlier , but I'm doubting that .
Note the graceful curve of the gangya top on the old , complete kris .
Now note the absolutely straight one on the mystery example.

We have seen other examples IIRC some years ago there was a kris with an uncarved , blank trunk area ; anyone else remember this one ?
Federico , was that Jimmy's kris ?

I've got to disagree with you Tom ; I know everything is in the eye of the beholder but the mystery kris just appears downright clumsy in its execution compared to the other one .

How about a blade length and width Ian ?

[Ian]

This discussion is going much as I expected and hoped it would. The issues raised are exactly what I have been asking myself.

Now, what about that darn inscription? It is not a credible date for the C.E., nor for a Muslim date (and why would a Muslim date not be in Arabic?).

Rick: I will add the dimensions for both of the swords above this evening.

Ian.

[Rick]

I'd also like to see more pictures of the undated side including a full one if possible please .
Have you tried spraying some WD40 into the gangya area then wiping it off after a short soak ?
This might make the line of separation show up better .

Now I'm leaning more toward apprentice's work .
Every Panday's apprentice has to learn by doing .

Still stumped by the numbers .

[Bill]

Ian, nice comparison of the 2 blades. Have to agree that both are really old. The hilt on the object sword looks very old & I think the majority would agree, that it must be a replacement. It seems interesting that when we get into older kris, that they usually fall into the 18" catagory, +/- a ". Concidering the humidity & rainfall, doubt that sword could have been excavated. Got a couple that are similar to both those shown, & have to think they have conciderable age. Think the dapor is well executed for thrusting. Have a few swords that have the black patina, (very old), would any one like to give some opinions on that, time wise?

[Rick]

Since krisses are usually viewed within their culture point upwards does this view of the markings change anyones perceptions ?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill

Ian, nice comparison of the 2 blades. Have to agree that both are really old. The hilt on the object sword looks very old & I think the majority would agree, that it must be a replacement. It seems interesting that when we get into older kris, that they usually fall into the 18" catagory, +/- a ". Concidering the humidity & rainfall, doubt that sword could have been excavated. Got a couple that are similar to both those shown, & have to think they have conciderable age. Think the dapor is well executed for thrusting. Have a few swords that have the black patina, (very old), would any one like to give some opinions on that, time wise?

Bill , do you have any krisses that have either an absolutely flat or even somewhat down curving Gangya top ?

Tom , could this blackness be forging scale unremoved ?

[Bill]

Rick, if you mean, no "trunk" at all, the answer is no.

[Rick]

No Bill , I meant the surface that the hilt meets ; the top of the separate piece (gangya) always seems to have an upward curve to it .