Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2010, 03:52 AM

Well noted Aiontay!!! Gotta love this pirate stuff!

David, very nice sabre.....appears to be Manding leatherwork from Mali, but trade carried into the coastal regions. A friend of a while back was Fulani, native of course to Saharan regions, who was from Guinea.

All best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 19th January 2010, 04:25 AM

My $.02
katana, 18th c. boarding cutlass blades are not curved nearly as much as the blade on your piece. Your blade also appears to be of far nicer quality and finish than almost any cutlass blade of that vintage. I don't know the size of your blade, but at this juncture to me it looks like a European saber style blade.

M ELEY · 19th January 2010, 07:13 AM

Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2010, 03:25 PM

In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon.

Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr.

These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced.

It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible.

Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances.

Mark, the Whydah story truly is fascinating, and it seems there were some artifacts, but I cannot recall swords. I believe the other slave ship which was found was the 'Henrietta Marie' which I think David Moore told me about. This was years ago when I was talking with Wayne Lusardi who was diving on the 'Queen Annes Revenge', Blackbeards ship. I was constantly prodding him to find some swords....and we laughed because 'all they found were cannons' !!

The Henrietta Marie, if I recall, did have some hilts of old English hangers, and I keep thinking of the 'hilt spur' which seems to be from such English hangers of the Hounslow types.

Wish I could say I have the pirate resources here in the jolly bookmobile

..but that map was in me trusty google!!

All the best,
Jim

attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form

katana · 20th January 2010, 12:03 AM

Hi Jim,
interesting theory Holmes

I didn't intend to hijack Mark's thread, but because I would dearly love to 'promote' this sabre from the mystery pile to the 'could possibly be' pile, I will start another thread.

Never really thought of 'The Americas' influences, possibly occuring in Western Africa.
I wonder whether places like Cuba etc may have had a small fleet of 'slavers'.....possibly partially crewed with slaves or 'trustees'

There is the possibility,however remote, that Mark's sword is a Spanish colonial piece...perhaps re-hilted in Africa or rehilted by an African slave. Many Africans captured would have had skills or trades ....some could have been blacksmiths

Best
David

Rick · 20th January 2010, 01:14 AM

Ahh, the Whydah Galley .

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ahh, the Whydah Galley .

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!!

M ELEY · 24th January 2010, 08:33 AM

Well, I made the decision to part with the African cutlass (my collecting is only supported by selling off or trading other items) and sold it to pay for a piece on eBay. Take a look-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It is a Dutch Marine sabal/saber circa 1790. According to Gilkerson/Boarders Away, it is thought that the ones without Dutch markings, rack numbers, etc, were imported to the U.S. during the Quazi War for ship use by the newly reformed U.S. Marines. In any case, while doing a general search on Google for other Dutch swords, I coincidentally stumbled upon this specimen-

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=14911

Look familiar? That hilt wrap resembles the one just sold. So, I'm assuming this to be West African or???

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2010, 03:15 PM

Excellent call on this 'Civil War' sabre Mark!!!! Even though damaged, a most unusual item that has distinct possibilities....you've got quite the eagle eye there to spot that one as Dutch...Gilkerson is definitely a valuable resource.

I'm inclined to think that the guy in Houston has this sabre pegged pretty accurately, and it very well might be Dutch and of Revolutionary War period, after all, New York and environs were early Dutch settlements. The connections to the Netherlands in these colonial times were profound.
As far as the style of wrap, it seems more 'period' than place, and quite honestly with the amount of diffusion in trade, colonial activity and of course warfare in these times, without well supported provenance, any assessment must remain mostly speculation in my opinion.
In the case of the sabre posted here, the speculation seems compelling.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Mark, thank you so much for keeping it going with these colonial and maritime topics!!! You really keep things intriguing and fun!!

Here is the sabre from Houston shown as possibly Revolutionary War period Dutch...need to check Neumann on this one

celtan · 24th January 2010, 10:22 PM

Personally, I'd rather help them submerge...

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!!

19th January 2010, 04:25 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My $.02 katana, 18th c. boarding cutlass blades are not curved nearly as much as the blade on your piece. Your blade also appears to be of far nicer quality and finish than almost any cutlass blade of that vintage. I don't know the size of your blade, but at this juncture to me it looks like a European saber style blade. Last edited by Dmitry; 19th January 2010 at 06:45 AM.

19th January 2010, 03:25 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon. Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr. These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced. It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible. Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances. Mark, the Whydah story truly is fascinating, and it seems there were some artifacts, but I cannot recall swords. I believe the other slave ship which was found was the 'Henrietta Marie' which I think David Moore told me about. This was years ago when I was talking with Wayne Lusardi who was diving on the 'Queen Annes Revenge', Blackbeards ship. I was constantly prodding him to find some swords....and we laughed because 'all they found were cannons' !! The Henrietta Marie, if I recall, did have some hilts of old English hangers, and I keep thinking of the 'hilt spur' which seems to be from such English hangers of the Hounslow types. Wish I could say I have the pirate resources here in the jolly bookmobile ..but that map was in me trusty google!! All the best, Jim attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th January 2010 at 04:00 PM.

20th January 2010, 12:03 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, interesting theory Holmes I didn't intend to hijack Mark's thread, but because I would dearly love to 'promote' this sabre from the mystery pile to the 'could possibly be' pile, I will start another thread. Never really thought of 'The Americas' influences, possibly occuring in Western Africa. I wonder whether places like Cuba etc may have had a small fleet of 'slavers'.....possibly partially crewed with slaves or 'trustees' There is the possibility,however remote, that Mark's sword is a Spanish colonial piece...perhaps re-hilted in Africa or rehilted by an African slave. Many Africans captured would have had skills or trades ....some could have been blacksmiths Best David Last edited by katana; 20th January 2010 at 01:36 AM.

24th January 2010, 08:33 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Strange how life works... Well, I made the decision to part with the African cutlass (my collecting is only supported by selling off or trading other items) and sold it to pay for a piece on eBay. Take a look- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT It is a Dutch Marine sabal/saber circa 1790. According to Gilkerson/Boarders Away, it is thought that the ones without Dutch markings, rack numbers, etc, were imported to the U.S. during the Quazi War for ship use by the newly reformed U.S. Marines. In any case, while doing a general search on Google for other Dutch swords, I coincidentally stumbled upon this specimen- http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=14911 Look familiar? That hilt wrap resembles the one just sold. So, I'm assuming this to be West African or??? Last edited by M ELEY; 24th January 2010 at 08:51 AM.

24th January 2010, 03:15 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent call on this 'Civil War' sabre Mark!!!! Even though damaged, a most unusual item that has distinct possibilities....you've got quite the eagle eye there to spot that one as Dutch...Gilkerson is definitely a valuable resource. I'm inclined to think that the guy in Houston has this sabre pegged pretty accurately, and it very well might be Dutch and of Revolutionary War period, after all, New York and environs were early Dutch settlements. The connections to the Netherlands in these colonial times were profound. As far as the style of wrap, it seems more 'period' than place, and quite honestly with the amount of diffusion in trade, colonial activity and of course warfare in these times, without well supported provenance, any assessment must remain mostly speculation in my opinion. In the case of the sabre posted here, the speculation seems compelling. All the best, Jim P.S. Mark, thank you so much for keeping it going with these colonial and maritime topics!!! You really keep things intriguing and fun!! Here is the sabre from Houston shown as possibly Revolutionary War period Dutch...need to check Neumann on this one Attached Images

19th January 2010, 03:52 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Well noted Aiontay!!! Gotta love this pirate stuff! David, very nice sabre.....appears to be Manding leatherwork from Mali, but trade carried into the coastal regions. A friend of a while back was Fulani, native of course to Saharan regions, who was from Guinea. All best regards, Jim

19th January 2010, 07:13 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword. Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member. David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind. P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-