Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

LOL!!!! Those pesky papparazzi's!!!! How did they get this picture of me in my sword research disguise, on the neverending quest for those elusive references !
Outstanding Manolo !, ya got me there.

I wish I could get a better photo of these markings, they really are as I showed though, the Cs and an A, the numeral 4 and below 43.

It is distinctly a British light cav 1796, and I've probably had it 30 years now, again, not available right now.

All the best,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Manolo/Fernando,
If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[celtan]

Hi Ian,

Compañia has the feminine genre. Regimiento is of the masculine genre.

So 4 a would be Cuarta (4th) Compañia. To that, you can add that Cia. is also an accepted abbreviation for Compañia.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Those pesky romance verbs, tenses, adverbs and genres.

(OTOH, our pronunciation is more predictable ie. men ace / menace )

: )

PD: Just think about Spanglish in NY and LA. Now you have a headache..!

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Manolo/Fernando,

If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[fernando]

Dear Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dear Ian,


I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

Never mind Fernando,
Thanks for your help anyway. I guess that the markings will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. I think that the sword saw plenty of action and a long life. The blade should be 1 1/2 inches wide . In places the blade has lost nearly 1/4 inch through excessive sharpening.
Ian

[Ian Knight]

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[fernando]

Great work; well done.
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Thank you Fernando. It's very time consuming making a bespoke grip but very rewarding. This one took me two days to complete.
Ian

[katana]

Hi Ian,
nice job.....what wood did you use ?

Regards David

[celtan]

Beautiful results.

I must confess to be envious of your abilities, I have no idea how to dismount a hilt or replate silver finish...

Best

M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely magnificent Ian!!! You have done a wonderful job at maintaining the integrity of this great old warrior!! I love the M1796 heavies!!

All the best,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much guys. I may write a illustrated list of instructions when I make my next grip.

David,
The grip was made from beech wood shaped and covered in leather. The grip was made out of two pieces. The tang is marked out on one piece and cut out to the full depth of the tang. The second piece is then glued to it.

Manolo,
Taking this sword apart was fairly easy as the leather buffer/washer was placed between the blade and hilt not just slid over the blade. I cut the old leather buffer away and was then able to push the blade backwards exposing about 2 mm of the tang. The peened over end of the tang can then be filed off allowing you to dis-assemble the sword. Hey presto.

Jim,
I have always wanted a P1796 HC sword but could never afford one. I bought this old thing at a fair price because of the grip.

Ian


Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the info.
My Regards,
Norman.