Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

M ELEY · 11th January 2010, 03:11 AM

Hello Manelo and thanks for your input,

I'll have to do a little research on the Canaries. I've seen the knife from there that resembles the plug bayonet, but never one with a guard or curved blade. Your logic of the trade routes does make sense, though.

Having looked through a million old catalogs of mine and perusing the web, I do see a more than slight resemblence with the so-called Fon war sword. Likewise, the curved short blades on some Nigerian pieces (still W Africa) could fit the bill, if not an exact fit. I still see more of a Spanish influence here with the European-style blade, D-guard hilt, strapwork grip and spiral quillon. The Spanish were in the Maghreb, but not in the Dahomey empire/area, more in Spanish Morocco. Likewise, we all know of the Spanish influence on Philippine weapons. As David succintly stated, this one might always remain in the mystery pile...

katana · 11th January 2010, 01:57 PM

Mark, the Canaries has been a Spanish colony for many years...

"....From the late fifteenth century to 1821 the Canaries underwent a process of increasing assimilation into Spanish political and cultural norms, despite periodic attacks from North Africa and from Dutch and English privateers and pirates in the seventeenth century. By the early twenty-first century the Canary Islands still formed part of the Spanish state, included in the 1978 constitution..."
http://www.answers.com/topic/africa-...canary-islands

One other thought I had about the 'spiral' design of the hilt ....Western Africans regard the snake with great 'reverence' ....it could be argued that it is symbolic (of a snake). I wondered whether there were any markings on the metal that could support this 'theory' ....however, as the metal inlay is soft, I suspect that if there were 'markings' originally, they would probably be 'rubbed' by now.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 04:52 PM

Mark, I'm glad you've kept this thread going, and probably one of the best results is in emphasizing the difficulties in identification of swords which are actually Mexican, and really not technically Spanish Colonial. When dealing with weapons which are fabricated in later periods than the weapons they in essence replicate, often even using actual earlier components, it becomes extremely difficult to accurately assess them.

The 'round tang hilt' as I have mentioned, was essentially a hanger type sabre which evolved around the 1820's, and sought to add a multiple bar handguard as seen on European military sabre hilts. In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", I believe the term used loosely was 'gavilan' to describe these hilts (the term if I recall refers to 'sprouts' as in wheat etc). As may be expected in the frontier environment in which these were fabricated, there were countless variations, and as mentioned, often using blades from surplus, trade or damaged weapons.
It would be difficult to establish definite periods of use, as popular use of these was essentially to carry forth traditional fashion from contemporary military styles and in some cases attempts to preserve the heritage of the Spanish ancestry, more from that point of view. It was a struggling young country seeking to create its autonomy and its own identity, which clearly reflected the diversity of its people.

The espada ancha itself developed primarily out of the recognition of the fashions of earlier times and the gentry of European countries, with one of the most likely influences being English hangers of the 17th century. While it evolved into essentially a utilitarian weapon of the frontier, very much like a machete, awareness of more military style weapons, and the multiple bar guard became popular, and probably carried well into the latter 19th century.
Even during the Porfiria, the long rule of Porfirio Diaz, swords were an element of the loosely styled police units known as 'Rurales', who wore many variations of sabres from vintage sabres of earlier times, to refurbished versions as described.

The scroll type quillon terminal noted is well established among examples of the espada ancha, and other sword variations in Mexico, which of course were produced throughout the 19th century.

The sword with the heavy blade and the unusual eaglehead hilt seems very much like the 'court' type dress swords (in this case with heavy fighting blade) which were often produced for officers or officials in what I would like to call 'regency type' weapons of Mexico. It seems that during post colonial (after 1821) times the attempts to create an 'Empire' beginning with Iturbide, also brought impressions of elevated stature to often relatively minor figures in outlying provinces and cities who sought to emulate regalia of the court atmospheres of Europe. The call for 'dress' fashion weapons was often answered by local blacksmiths who created traditional swords accordingly, and with in my opinion, admirable skill using materials available.

These are unfortunately often regarded dismissively by collectors, and clearly often misidentified, but in my opinion they represent the tenacious spririt of this diverse people seeking national identity in the most turbulent of times.

The final words in Bill Adams article, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico" (1984) notes concerning these weapons that "...there is not yet much scholarship on the subject. I can see in the swords themselves much about the people who used them. For now, that is enough".

Well said about the weapons, but for me...it is never enough

and like most of my work on studying weapons, it remains 'work in progress'.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 05:56 PM

I just wanted to add additional photos after the battle with that illustration from the Adams article which is addmittedly of poor quality, but shows the type of Mexican swords I am referring to, and which corresponds to the example shown by Mark.

Here is an illustration from Lee Jones article on this website on espada anchas which illustrates the scroll quillon, as well as excerpts from both Neumann and Peterson showing the hangers from which the espada ancha and subsequent 'roiund tang' espadas evolved.

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 08:52 PM

Mark, concerning the link to this eaglehead sword, I wanted to add that this seems to fall into the type of 'regency' swords that were furbished for court or official dress wear. A number of years ago I was able to handle a sword that had belonged to the family of Gen. Santa Anna, and had been his of course. It seems as I recall it had a hilt with eaglehead and distinctly recall that it had something to do with Oaxaca on the blade. It was in the stored holdings of a museum in a safe, and I didn't get the opportunity for photos.

Oaxaca was contiguous to the west of the the key port of Vera Cruz, one of the extremely important ports of call in the 'Spanish Main' trade network, and perhaps this was a presentation piece to him?

In any case, it was yet another instance of the eaglehead used in these early times of the Mexican Republic.

All very best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th January 2010, 08:30 AM

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

celtan · 12th January 2010, 11:50 AM

Eley,the Canaries are a Spanish province. I don't think that rapiers were still in vogue during the 19th C, although the small-sword did make it until the 1820s.

BTW, I don't seem to recall any roperas/rapiers ever been made in Mexico, although I believe some putting together/repairs of Blades and perhaps even hilts, imported from Spain did take place.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

11th January 2010, 04:52 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Mark, I'm glad you've kept this thread going, and probably one of the best results is in emphasizing the difficulties in identification of swords which are actually Mexican, and really not technically Spanish Colonial. When dealing with weapons which are fabricated in later periods than the weapons they in essence replicate, often even using actual earlier components, it becomes extremely difficult to accurately assess them. The 'round tang hilt' as I have mentioned, was essentially a hanger type sabre which evolved around the 1820's, and sought to add a multiple bar handguard as seen on European military sabre hilts. In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", I believe the term used loosely was 'gavilan' to describe these hilts (the term if I recall refers to 'sprouts' as in wheat etc). As may be expected in the frontier environment in which these were fabricated, there were countless variations, and as mentioned, often using blades from surplus, trade or damaged weapons. It would be difficult to establish definite periods of use, as popular use of these was essentially to carry forth traditional fashion from contemporary military styles and in some cases attempts to preserve the heritage of the Spanish ancestry, more from that point of view. It was a struggling young country seeking to create its autonomy and its own identity, which clearly reflected the diversity of its people. The espada ancha itself developed primarily out of the recognition of the fashions of earlier times and the gentry of European countries, with one of the most likely influences being English hangers of the 17th century. While it evolved into essentially a utilitarian weapon of the frontier, very much like a machete, awareness of more military style weapons, and the multiple bar guard became popular, and probably carried well into the latter 19th century. Even during the Porfiria, the long rule of Porfirio Diaz, swords were an element of the loosely styled police units known as 'Rurales', who wore many variations of sabres from vintage sabres of earlier times, to refurbished versions as described. The scroll type quillon terminal noted is well established among examples of the espada ancha, and other sword variations in Mexico, which of course were produced throughout the 19th century. The sword with the heavy blade and the unusual eaglehead hilt seems very much like the 'court' type dress swords (in this case with heavy fighting blade) which were often produced for officers or officials in what I would like to call 'regency type' weapons of Mexico. It seems that during post colonial (after 1821) times the attempts to create an 'Empire' beginning with Iturbide, also brought impressions of elevated stature to often relatively minor figures in outlying provinces and cities who sought to emulate regalia of the court atmospheres of Europe. The call for 'dress' fashion weapons was often answered by local blacksmiths who created traditional swords accordingly, and with in my opinion, admirable skill using materials available. These are unfortunately often regarded dismissively by collectors, and clearly often misidentified, but in my opinion they represent the tenacious spririt of this diverse people seeking national identity in the most turbulent of times. The final words in Bill Adams article, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico" (1984) notes concerning these weapons that "...there is not yet much scholarship on the subject. I can see in the swords themselves much about the people who used them. For now, that is enough". Well said about the weapons, but for me...it is never enough and like most of my work on studying weapons, it remains 'work in progress'. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th January 2010 at 06:30 PM.

11th January 2010, 05:56 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I just wanted to add additional photos after the battle with that illustration from the Adams article which is addmittedly of poor quality, but shows the type of Mexican swords I am referring to, and which corresponds to the example shown by Mark. Here is an illustration from Lee Jones article on this website on espada anchas which illustrates the scroll quillon, as well as excerpts from both Neumann and Peterson showing the hangers from which the espada ancha and subsequent 'roiund tang' espadas evolved. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th January 2010 at 06:36 PM.

11th January 2010, 08:52 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Mark, concerning the link to this eaglehead sword, I wanted to add that this seems to fall into the type of 'regency' swords that were furbished for court or official dress wear. A number of years ago I was able to handle a sword that had belonged to the family of Gen. Santa Anna, and had been his of course. It seems as I recall it had a hilt with eaglehead and distinctly recall that it had something to do with Oaxaca on the blade. It was in the stored holdings of a museum in a safe, and I didn't get the opportunity for photos. Oaxaca was contiguous to the west of the the key port of Vera Cruz, one of the extremely important ports of call in the 'Spanish Main' trade network, and perhaps this was a presentation piece to him? In any case, it was yet another instance of the eaglehead used in these early times of the Mexican Republic. All very best regards, Jim Attached Images

11th January 2010, 03:11 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Manelo and thanks for your input, I'll have to do a little research on the Canaries. I've seen the knife from there that resembles the plug bayonet, but never one with a guard or curved blade. Your logic of the trade routes does make sense, though. Having looked through a million old catalogs of mine and perusing the web, I do see a more than slight resemblence with the so-called Fon war sword. Likewise, the curved short blades on some Nigerian pieces (still W Africa) could fit the bill, if not an exact fit. I still see more of a Spanish influence here with the European-style blade, D-guard hilt, strapwork grip and spiral quillon. The Spanish were in the Maghreb, but not in the Dahomey empire/area, more in Spanish Morocco. Likewise, we all know of the Spanish influence on Philippine weapons. As David succintly stated, this one might always remain in the mystery pile...

11th January 2010, 01:57 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Mark, the Canaries has been a Spanish colony for many years... "....From the late fifteenth century to 1821 the Canaries underwent a process of increasing assimilation into Spanish political and cultural norms, despite periodic attacks from North Africa and from Dutch and English privateers and pirates in the seventeenth century. By the early twenty-first century the Canary Islands still formed part of the Spanish state, included in the 1978 constitution..." http://www.answers.com/topic/africa-...canary-islands One other thought I had about the 'spiral' design of the hilt ....Western Africans regard the snake with great 'reverence' ....it could be argued that it is symbolic (of a snake). I wondered whether there were any markings on the metal that could support this 'theory' ....however, as the metal inlay is soft, I suspect that if there were 'markings' originally, they would probably be 'rubbed' by now. Regards David

12th January 2010, 08:30 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you gents once again for responding, David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well. Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!