Ancient, armed Indian from Kabul

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure the armour is patterned chainmail with plates, like what BI and Aqtai have shown us.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2005, 04:03 PM

Its really hard to tell by the drawing as it appears to be fabric, however if chain mail it would even be more in line with the Rajput type described in Robinson (op.cit.) who describes the mail as being in diamond pattern with steel studs centre. The peaked flaps downward as seen in the Egerton example shown seem also to concur.
Best regards,
Jim

B.I · 22nd May 2005, 06:05 PM

hi jim/tom,
jims assessment is eloguent, informative and annoyingly well-written, as ever :-)
its interesting that jim took the artists drawing to be possibly fabric armour and not chainmail. it could easily be, but i think that i would be more likely patterned chainmail, as tom agreed. the style of the shirt is well known, as they were late examples and many still exist in collections to compare with. also, the camail and the zirah are of a familiar pattern and if they were of fabric, they would be unusually rare (but again, possible).
i am away from my library, but does robinson state any more in his description. if not, i would assume the armour he is describing could be fabirc armour, and of the type known collogually as a shirt 'of a thousand nails'. this armour had a chequered pattern sewn into the quilted fabric and each chequer was centred with a brass stud. no chainmail though. the helmets (the one in powis is complete) was a steel bowl (khud) with fabric ear and neck sections, not a hood as you describe.
the fabric hood with a nasal bar seems more likely southern and possibly of the well known 'tipu' form, which exists in windsor, in a private london collection and in wiggingtons collection.
i'm glad you saw the point i was referring to on the lance. a silly enquiry, but it just didnt fit into the image (even an image wrongly assembled). maybe its form will jog someones memory as it would be a good discussion on its own.

i have just seen a copy of robinson, and the armour he describes is the 'wallace' type fabric armour, and not chainmail. he refers to a good example being the royal armouries suit, which has the 'hood' helmet.
i am trying to source images of the great exhibition, which i know must exist. there were a series of 'art portfolios' in the india museum, many of which illustrated arms collections of the 19thC. i am hoping they are now in the V&A and when found, i think they may yield some good starting points for comparative discussions.

Aqtai · 22nd May 2005, 08:14 PM

I also feel that the armour is mail, not a quilted aketon. In the 18th century Indians and Iranians used mail that mixed brass and steel rings in order to create patterns.

I have a picture here of Indian armour from the Victoria and Albert Museum which includes patterned mail:

B.I · 22nd May 2005, 08:31 PM

hi Aqtai,
the armour you show is a perfect example, and originates from lahore (according to their accession records, which also correspond in decoration with a similar piece in the royal armouries, which was brought back from lahore by Login).
jens illustration shows a slight variation in patterning, with the chequers pierced with dots, which are either brass as well, or copper giving a more attracting contrast.
a nice picture, by the way. where was it taken from?

Aqtai · 22nd May 2005, 09:00 PM

The picture was scanned from a postcard I bought from the V&A in 1999

.

I've just had a look in G.C. Stone's 'Glossary of...". In India armour made of a mixture of mail and brass links was called Ganga Jamni. Stone also points out that armour of this type was invariably unrivetted, which reduces it's efficacy somewhat.

On the subject of Orientalist painting and drawing, many artists tended to mix together armour and clothing from different times and places for maximum visual impact. So the hypothesis that this is a composite figure based on several pieces in The Tzarcoe-Selo collection is probably true.

One of my favorite orientalist paintings is the 'Nubian Guard' by Ludwig Deutsch. This shows a Nubian standing outside what look the doors of the mosque of Sultan Barquq in Cairo. This 'Guard' is wearing a kulah khud, a mail shirt, a red 'abaya, and has a Caucasian khindjal and a pistol thrust through some kind of leather sash. To top it off he appears to be holding an Ottoman standard! The picture is beautiful, but obviously accuracy is not high on Deutsch's agenda, nor was on most Orientalist artists agendas, with the exceptions of David Roberts and Prisse D'Avennes.

ariel · 22nd May 2005, 11:17 PM

Gentlemen,
I recently visited Leeds Royal Armoury and made quite a lot of pictures of their Oriental collection. I apologize for the quality, as I had to photograph through the glass ant the lights were very bad (perhaps, the real reason is my substandard ability).
Well, I photographed a dagger that may provide an answer to the current argument: an Indian (Rajastani) Dha

22nd May 2005, 06:05 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim/tom, jims assessment is eloguent, informative and annoyingly well-written, as ever :-) its interesting that jim took the artists drawing to be possibly fabric armour and not chainmail. it could easily be, but i think that i would be more likely patterned chainmail, as tom agreed. the style of the shirt is well known, as they were late examples and many still exist in collections to compare with. also, the camail and the zirah are of a familiar pattern and if they were of fabric, they would be unusually rare (but again, possible). i am away from my library, but does robinson state any more in his description. if not, i would assume the armour he is describing could be fabirc armour, and of the type known collogually as a shirt 'of a thousand nails'. this armour had a chequered pattern sewn into the quilted fabric and each chequer was centred with a brass stud. no chainmail though. the helmets (the one in powis is complete) was a steel bowl (khud) with fabric ear and neck sections, not a hood as you describe. the fabric hood with a nasal bar seems more likely southern and possibly of the well known 'tipu' form, which exists in windsor, in a private london collection and in wiggingtons collection. i'm glad you saw the point i was referring to on the lance. a silly enquiry, but it just didnt fit into the image (even an image wrongly assembled). maybe its form will jog someones memory as it would be a good discussion on its own. i have just seen a copy of robinson, and the armour he describes is the 'wallace' type fabric armour, and not chainmail. he refers to a good example being the royal armouries suit, which has the 'hood' helmet. i am trying to source images of the great exhibition, which i know must exist. there were a series of 'art portfolios' in the india museum, many of which illustrated arms collections of the 19thC. i am hoping they are now in the V&A and when found, i think they may yield some good starting points for comparative discussions. Last edited by B.I; 22nd May 2005 at 08:23 PM.

22nd May 2005, 11:17 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, I recently visited Leeds Royal Armoury and made quite a lot of pictures of their Oriental collection. I apologize for the quality, as I had to photograph through the glass ant the lights were very bad (perhaps, the real reason is my substandard ability). Well, I photographed a dagger that may provide an answer to the current argument: an Indian (Rajastani) Dha Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 12:03 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm pretty sure the armour is patterned chainmail with plates, like what BI and Aqtai have shown us.

22nd May 2005, 04:03 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Its really hard to tell by the drawing as it appears to be fabric, however if chain mail it would even be more in line with the Rajput type described in Robinson (op.cit.) who describes the mail as being in diamond pattern with steel studs centre. The peaked flaps downward as seen in the Egerton example shown seem also to concur. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2005, 08:14 PM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I also feel that the armour is mail, not a quilted aketon. In the 18th century Indians and Iranians used mail that mixed brass and steel rings in order to create patterns. I have a picture here of Indian armour from the Victoria and Albert Museum which includes patterned mail:

22nd May 2005, 08:31 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi Aqtai, the armour you show is a perfect example, and originates from lahore (according to their accession records, which also correspond in decoration with a similar piece in the royal armouries, which was brought back from lahore by Login). jens illustration shows a slight variation in patterning, with the chequers pierced with dots, which are either brass as well, or copper giving a more attracting contrast. a nice picture, by the way. where was it taken from?

22nd May 2005, 09:00 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	The picture was scanned from a postcard I bought from the V&A in 1999 . I've just had a look in G.C. Stone's 'Glossary of...". In India armour made of a mixture of mail and brass links was called Ganga Jamni. Stone also points out that armour of this type was invariably unrivetted, which reduces it's efficacy somewhat. On the subject of Orientalist painting and drawing, many artists tended to mix together armour and clothing from different times and places for maximum visual impact. So the hypothesis that this is a composite figure based on several pieces in The Tzarcoe-Selo collection is probably true. One of my favorite orientalist paintings is the 'Nubian Guard' by Ludwig Deutsch. This shows a Nubian standing outside what look the doors of the mosque of Sultan Barquq in Cairo. This 'Guard' is wearing a kulah khud, a mail shirt, a red 'abaya, and has a Caucasian khindjal and a pistol thrust through some kind of leather sash. To top it off he appears to be holding an Ottoman standard! The picture is beautiful, but obviously accuracy is not high on Deutsch's agenda, nor was on most Orientalist artists agendas, with the exceptions of David Roberts and Prisse D'Avennes.