Help with North Article

Emanuel · 6th January 2010, 03:42 PM

Hi Jim,

My library has this magazine. I will check if they have the volume with the article you seek and scan it for you in the next few days.

All the best and drive safe in the new year

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2010, 03:51 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks so much! Its good to hear from you.
Happy new year to you also!

We're 'becalmed' for a while, not much driving for another month or so.......the bookmobile is definitely not good in ice!

Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the heads up on the Buttin source. Very much appreciate the assist and I'll check that out.

All very best regards,
Jim

celtan · 6th January 2010, 04:07 PM

Heads up in the Buttin?

My, Jim, you are a kidder, you!

: )

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks so much! Its good to hear from you.
Happy new year to you also!

We're 'becalmed' for a while, not much driving for another month or so.......the bookmobile is definitely not good in ice!

Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the heads up on the Buttin source. Very much appreciate the assist and I'll check that out.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2010, 05:45 PM

Good grief! I guess I better be more careful in wording.....certainly never even thought of that perception and have often used the heads up expression.

My sincere intent was to express appreciation for the notice on the 'Charles Buttin' reference, which has long been colloquially termed 'Buttin' among collectors. I would never use that name in such a derogatory manner, the Buttin's are proudly good personal friends of mine for many years.

I appreciate humor as much as the next guy, but not particularly at such expense, and in this case in poor taste.

Emanuel · 8th January 2010, 04:27 PM

Here you go Jim,

I'll send you a pdf version shortly. The Venetian storta immediately came to mind when I saw the sword. The one below is a 15th century Venetian example (p.48 Swords and Hilt Weapons, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London 1989).

A very interesting article, I'll be sure to mine the magazine for other such gems.

All the best,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2010, 08:28 PM

Thank you so much Emanuel! I really appreciate this very much.
This article really is excellent, as it gives some fascinating references to the distinct associations between the Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilt and these Italian swords' hilts, which clearly diffused via Meditteranean trade and as far east as Ceylon with the kastane in its much more vestigially developed hilt.

It really would appear that this magazine probably did have quite a few treasured articles such as this through the years, it does seem they come up on rare occasions.

Again, with sincere appreciation,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th August 2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Here you go Jim,

I'll send you a pdf version shortly. The Venetian storta immediately came to mind when I saw the sword. The one below is a 15th century Venetian example (p.48 Swords and Hilt Weapons, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London 1989).

A very interesting article, I'll be sure to mine the magazine for other such gems.

All the best,
Emanuel

Salaams Jim, May this thread be placed on the Ethnographic Forum please?

It seems fitting that a new look at the Kastane ...and inspired by your post on the Nimcha situation by Tatyana at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kastane perhaps a further investigation can be launched with this existing thread as a lead.

The late Tony North created a magnificent research paper shown here by you. It occured to me that the Kastane has a far more ancient looking hilt and that it could have existed before the Portuguese, British or Dutch dynasties rolled through that region providing European replacement blades perhaps to a weapon that had existed previously.

I read your account in library of the Japanese 16th Century presentation Kastane obtained in Sri Lanka and wondered if that could be added as key evidence of a potentially earlier development?

A study on the Moors of Sri Lanka is interesting...They appear lightly in the 1st C and in greater numbers from the 8th C through the 14th. Moorish influence by these great sea traders indicate either Jinetta or Storta design in the Kastane and I am interested in Sri Lankan blade production which was highly advanced with air enhanced furnaces thus better steel etc.

The Sri Lankan Moors traded with Bagdad as well as Hadramaut and Hyderabad and must have had a hand in blades for the Red Sea hub.
Kastane also extended to Europe as dress swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2012, 05:48 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim for posting this thread! You truly are a master at navigating through these archived threads and material, and Im glad to remember Emanuel who has not posted for a while but also did valuable work on nimcha research. We of course remember the misnomer in the term 'nimcha' but use it here for convenience in discussion focused on the sword type rather than etymology.

The kastane mentioned was actually 17th century and acquired by Japanese in a diplomatic and trade mission through several Asian ports of call and returned to Tokyo in 1622 (I believe the sword is in Sendai museum if I recall). As you have noted, it does seem likely that the sword form must have existed at least some time before that, and the zoomorphic figures seen in the motif were indiginous to the mythology and traditions of the region. In the mid 17th century there were a number of lionhead swords issued to VOC fleet owners and it is tempting to consider they may have been influenced by presentation weapons produced by Sinhalan artisans. Some of these are seen in ivory.

The weapons in use in Sinhala pre 17th century may be presumed to be of South Indian forms and probably varying degree of Arab arms which would have been in the colonial stations described. As the kastane itself was apparantly in use in an almost regalia type status in earlier times it may be presumed that it was probably adorned with these lionhead and makara features accordingly. It is hard to say which of the weapon forms may have been adopted as the medium for this distinct form, but the figures and the hilt structure were likely an amalgam which became the kastane prior to the 1622 date.

While this seems to sidetrack from the nimcha and its development, the kastane remains key in the sense of being the eastern element of these suggested influences.

All the best,
Jim

8th January 2010, 04:27 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here you go Jim, I'll send you a pdf version shortly. The Venetian storta immediately came to mind when I saw the sword. The one below is a 15th century Venetian example (p.48 Swords and Hilt Weapons, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London 1989). A very interesting article, I'll be sure to mine the magazine for other such gems. All the best, Emanuel Attached Images

6th January 2010, 03:42 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, My library has this magazine. I will check if they have the volume with the article you seek and scan it for you in the next few days. All the best and drive safe in the new year Emanuel

6th January 2010, 03:51 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Emanuel, Thanks so much! Its good to hear from you. Happy new year to you also! We're 'becalmed' for a while, not much driving for another month or so.......the bookmobile is definitely not good in ice! Dmitry, Thanks very much for the heads up on the Buttin source. Very much appreciate the assist and I'll check that out. All very best regards, Jim

6th January 2010, 05:45 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Good grief! I guess I better be more careful in wording.....certainly never even thought of that perception and have often used the heads up expression. My sincere intent was to express appreciation for the notice on the 'Charles Buttin' reference, which has long been colloquially termed 'Buttin' among collectors. I would never use that name in such a derogatory manner, the Buttin's are proudly good personal friends of mine for many years. I appreciate humor as much as the next guy, but not particularly at such expense, and in this case in poor taste.

8th January 2010, 08:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Emanuel! I really appreciate this very much. This article really is excellent, as it gives some fascinating references to the distinct associations between the Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilt and these Italian swords' hilts, which clearly diffused via Meditteranean trade and as far east as Ceylon with the kastane in its much more vestigially developed hilt. It really would appear that this magazine probably did have quite a few treasured articles such as this through the years, it does seem they come up on rare occasions. Again, with sincere appreciation, Jim

28th August 2012, 05:48 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Ibrahiim for posting this thread! You truly are a master at navigating through these archived threads and material, and Im glad to remember Emanuel who has not posted for a while but also did valuable work on nimcha research. We of course remember the misnomer in the term 'nimcha' but use it here for convenience in discussion focused on the sword type rather than etymology. The kastane mentioned was actually 17th century and acquired by Japanese in a diplomatic and trade mission through several Asian ports of call and returned to Tokyo in 1622 (I believe the sword is in Sendai museum if I recall). As you have noted, it does seem likely that the sword form must have existed at least some time before that, and the zoomorphic figures seen in the motif were indiginous to the mythology and traditions of the region. In the mid 17th century there were a number of lionhead swords issued to VOC fleet owners and it is tempting to consider they may have been influenced by presentation weapons produced by Sinhalan artisans. Some of these are seen in ivory. The weapons in use in Sinhala pre 17th century may be presumed to be of South Indian forms and probably varying degree of Arab arms which would have been in the colonial stations described. As the kastane itself was apparantly in use in an almost regalia type status in earlier times it may be presumed that it was probably adorned with these lionhead and makara features accordingly. It is hard to say which of the weapon forms may have been adopted as the medium for this distinct form, but the figures and the hilt structure were likely an amalgam which became the kastane prior to the 1622 date. While this seems to sidetrack from the nimcha and its development, the kastane remains key in the sense of being the eastern element of these suggested influences. All the best, Jim