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Old 13th May 2005, 08:58 PM   #31
Ian
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Default Cholera Outbreak -- OT

We are starting to stray off topic, but I do feel obliged to comment on the lengthy quote posted by Spunjer.

Public health and sanitation is one of my fields of expertise.

Cholera outbreaks are common, even now, wherever sanitation is compromised. Also, lengthy periods have often occurred between outbreaks of cholera in a particular place. Quarantining people during cholera outbreaks was common practice in the early 20th C. We did not understand the transmission of the disease, or its treatment, as well then as we do today.

I'm not saying the US Adminsitration was blameless in its handling of affairs in Davao, but there really needs to be more convincing evidence that this episode involved the deliberate use of infectious agents before labeling it an example of biological (germ) warfare. As Bill notes, cholera would have been a very unlikely "warfare agent" for the US to have used in 1908.

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Old 14th May 2005, 12:13 AM   #32
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Wasn't cholera a worldwide epidemic at the time?
I haven't found any accounts of the disease being used as a weapon, but the "scorched earth policy", killing everyone in sight including burning civilian homes and food, was used against the Moros, written about in a biography of an officer, 2nd Lt. Cornelius C. Smith Jr. You'll rarely find published info about war crimes and atrocities, they were censored after the first few massacres when the US public learned of what was occurring in their new colonies through the media, it was easier to accomplish by the creation of the constabulary who could carry out campaigns unnoticed. Only problem was the soldier's valor were going unrecorded so the constabulary started writing their own history in diaries and later books, interesting reading if you want to find out about the warfare and swords- kris, barung, kampilan, garab, bolos etc...
Maguindanao Sultan Uto died of cholera and there was a recorded incident of an outbreak among soldiers.

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Old 20th May 2005, 09:09 AM   #33
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Very interesting thread...

I just got back from the Philippines and found this thread. It gave me quite a chuckle since it reminds me of when I was just in Davao bartering with a Maranao merchant in Aldevinco. The shop had hundreds of swords, spears, and lantakas. The salesgirls tried to sell me recently made krises but I was adamant that they were "tourist" quality and wanted to see the real antiques. Thats when the proprietor stepped in and offered me a cup of tea so we could actually discuss business. He could tell I was serious customer so he only showed me the "real" antiques. Most of the real antiques were Lumad swords with a few old krises, kampilans, and budiaks. After an hour or so discussing Maranao weapons, history, and folklore I ended up walking away with two Lumad swords: one B'laan sword and one Bagobo sword. The proprietor knew I was looking for Lumad swords so he steered me towards a few of his better examples. I got them both for a very fair price...in fact you could say I got them for a steal!

Anyways, he pointed me into the direction of another Maranao merchant that had a gunong that I would probably be interested in. I went to the shop to find a really nice old ivory and silver hilt gunong with a silver scabbard. This was a genuinely old gunong with a nice old damascus blade and slender hilt. The shop owner was not around, but his son was there. He quoted me 800 pesos which is about $15. I quickly agreed but I wanted a receipt and a letter from the owner stating that the item was over a hundred years old just in case customs decided to confiscate it because of the ivory. The son located his father who came quickly and then yelled at his son. He then started laughing and explained that this particular gunong's price was 18,000 pesos and not 800 pesos...around $333, a more realistic price. He also said that he probably wouldn't even sell it to me if I was going to leave the country with it because of the CITES ban on ivory and didn't want to see it confiscated. He apologized to me and offered me his other weapons at a good discount. I was only interested in the gunong, but I did pick up a nice old malong from him that I'll display my swords on.

Anyways, I digress...

Hopefully, the market for Lumad swords don't increase anytime soon now that I have reliable contacts for these weapons ! Plus, I've discovered a sword form that really hasn't been discussed here yet...but I'm keeping that to myself .
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Old 20th May 2005, 01:07 PM   #34
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zel,
nice for you to be back safely. found any visayan stuff?
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Old 20th May 2005, 01:46 PM   #35
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Default Welcome back Zel ...

Look forward to seeing lots of pictures.

Interesting that a local merchant would have a handle on the CITES issue, and even better that he did not try to sell that gunong to you knowing that you would be leaving the country.

Now, about that new sword form ...

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Old 21st May 2005, 07:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
zel,
nice for you to be back safely. found any visayan stuff?


Yes I did ...
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Old 21st May 2005, 07:55 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Look forward to seeing lots of pictures.

Interesting that a local merchant would have a handle on the CITES issue, and even better that he did not try to sell that gunong to you knowing that you would be leaving the country.

Now, about that new sword form ...

Ian


Actually, most if not all the Maranao merchants in Davao dealing in antique weapons were quite knowledgeable and were aware of the CITES issue. Sure, many had recently made krises with fancy hilts, but a few had genuinely old weapons. Most know that most tourist want the fancy new swords which is why there are so many of those gaudy krises and gunongs in their shops. But, if an antique merchant determines that you're a serious client, that's when the real treasures come out from the back room. As for lumad swords, many carry them and are quite knowledgeable about them as well. Right now, the genuine lumad swords are still selling for a fraction less than the genuine old Moro swords, however, the better quality and rarer lumad swords are priced comparably with the Moro weapons.

As for the "new" sword form, I won't comment on it until I dig up more information and do some follow-up research. It really isn't that new, but distinctly different.
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Old 21st May 2005, 12:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
But, if an antique merchant determines that you're a serious client, that's when the real treasures come out from the back room.


sounds like you made a stop at omar's souvenir shop . picked up a few stuff plus a laminated kamp complete with scabbard in that one.

any possibilities on getting some pics on your visayan stuff ?
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Old 21st May 2005, 03:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
sounds like you made a stop at omar's souvenir shop . picked up a few stuff plus a laminated kamp complete with scabbard in that one.

any possibilities on getting some pics on your visayan stuff ?


Omar's was one of the shop's I visited...cool guy. His salesgirls have no clue about swords though. Actually, he was the one to point me to the ivory hilt gunong.

As for the Visayan stuff...I'll think about it
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Old 21st May 2005, 04:03 PM   #40
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So that is where you picked up the kamp.....KOSHER!
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Old 21st May 2005, 11:11 PM   #41
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Quote:
His salesgirls have no clue about swords though.


he he. hajji's angels, i called them. those three were a trip! he did showed me a a nice barung but at that time i was holding back for the one i saw in manila (which i ended up not getting anyways ) btw battara, that's the same place where i got the hawkbells and malong...
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Old 23rd May 2005, 01:12 AM   #42
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Good to hear you had a safe trip Zel, looking forward to pics. Any new book finds as well?
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Old 25th August 2005, 04:51 PM   #43
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Default Another one of these ...

well made swords just finished on eBay and the price is climbing. Even though advertised as "Moro" it is not a recognized weapon of the Moro but of the Kaolu (one of the Lumad tribes) around Davao City. The quality is good on these recently made swords, and they may have been produced by a Moro crafstman, but the style is definitely not Moro. This example is a modern sword made mainly for sale to wealthy tourists.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=6554400265

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Old 25th August 2005, 05:09 PM   #44
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ian

i was watching that as well. like you, i think it's recent...
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Old 25th August 2005, 05:32 PM   #45
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Holy Bedcovering !
Nice piece .

Three years ago this would not have fetched such a price .
I think I'm seeing the prices of Moro pieces declining of late while pieces from other Philippine cultures are on the rise .

Then again I don't think I've seen many real nice Moro Arms on ebay of late ;
many seem to be retrofitted examples .

Spunjer , where'd you find that pic of the guys gambling on the PI thread ?
Those carbines look like WWII ordinance .
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Old 25th August 2005, 09:14 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
... I think I'm seeing the prices of Moro pieces declining of late while pieces from other Philippine cultures are on the rise.

Then again I don't think I've seen many real nice Moro Arms on ebay of late;
many seem to be retrofitted examples. ...

Rick:

Not much good Moro stuff coming out of the Muslim areas because of the recent law and order problems in Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago. The better quality stuff is coming from Davao City and surroundings, which is relatively rich in Lumad weapons.

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Old 25th August 2005, 09:33 PM   #47
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Quote:
Spunjer , where'd you find that pic of the guys gambling on the PI thread ?
Those carbines look like WWII ordinance .


rick,

it's from the 'net. believe it or not, it's a wedding site, lol...
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Old 26th August 2005, 12:19 AM   #48
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UNFORTUNATELY THE THING DRIVING UP THE PRICES IS THE IDEA OF INVESTMENT POTENTIAL NOT INTREST BY COLLECTORS OF LIMITED MEANS. GALLERYS SELL IT AS ETHINOGRAPHIC ART WHICH WILL SOON BE GONE AND NO MORE WILL BE MADE AS THE SOCIETYS WHO MADE THEM NO LONGER EXHIST. THIS ENABLES THEM TO WRITE UP SOME INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS THEN PUT ON A HIGH APPRASIAL AND SELL AS A GOOD INVESTMENT WHICH WILL OUTPACE STOCKS, GOLD OR ANYTHING ELSE. PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF MONEY REALLY GO FOR THIS BUT ARE USUALLY NOT VERY INTERESTED IN THE HISTORY, USE OR CULTURE WHICH PRODUCED THEM JUST ON THE SUPPOSED BIG FAST PROFIT. AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH THE CASH AND THE DESIRE TO MAKE LOTS MORE MONEY PRICES WILL CONTINUE TO RISE AND WHAT THE GALLERYS SAY WILL BE TRUE IT WILL BE A GOOD INVESTMENT. PERSONALY I AM NOT A COLLECTOR TO MAKE A KILLING, I COLLECTED BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN THESE WEAPONS AND THEIR ORIGINS AND HISTORY. BUT I GUESS IT IS GOOD TO KNOW IF I SELL OUT MY COLLECTION I WILL MAKE A PROFIT, BUT IT IS HARD TO STOP TRYING TO COLLECT EVEN THOUGH I CAN NO LONGER AFFORD TO COMPETE SUCCESFULLY. I STILL THINK IT IS GOOD TO SHARE WHAT KNOWLEGE WE HAVE AS WE WILL NOT LIVE FOREVER AND TOO MUCH KNOWLEGE HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN TO THE GRAVE AND LOST.
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Old 26th August 2005, 12:31 AM   #49
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I guess I agree with you Barry , but edged weapon collectors are statistically a very small niche market in the entire ethnographic field are they not ?

Talk about un-PC !

EEK a sword !!
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Old 26th August 2005, 04:36 PM   #50
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I WOULD AGREE EDGEDED WEAPON COLLECTORS ARE A SMALL NICH AND SOME ONLY SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD OR TYPE OF WEAPON. I UNFORTUNATELY FIND EVERYTHING INTERESTING AND IT SEEMS EVERY TIME I HAVE DECIDED TO FOCUS ON ONE FIELD OR TYPE IT BECOMES A HOT ITEM WITH THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ART INVESTMENT CROWD AND IT GOES QUICKLY OUT OF REACH. I USED TO PICK UP THE OCCASIONAL OLD MANDAU BECAUSE IT WAS MISSING THE SCABBARD AND HAD A POOR HANDLE BUT THESE DAYS ON EBAY THEY ARE BRINGING WHAT A COMPLETE MANDAU WITH NICE HANDLE BROUGHT NOT TOO LONG AGO. SO DAYAK MANDAU ARE OFF THE MENU AS WELL AS PHILIPPINE WEAPONS WHICH WERE MY FAVORITE EDGED WEAPONS,MY MOST FAVORITE OCEANIC CLUBS HAVE ALSO TAKEN OFF INTO THE STRATOSPHERE. EVEN MUSEUMS HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME OUTBIDING THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ART INVESTORS. I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO BE CONTENT AND ENJOY WHAT I HAVE AND REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

I HAVE ALSO NOTICED A BIG INCREASE IN RECENT MADE MANDAU REPRESENTED AS OLD PIECES ON EBAY AND SUSPECT THAT DUE TO THE HIGH PRICES BEING PAYED PERHAPS BUYING A OLD MANDAU WITH A NICE BLADE AND REFITTING IT WITH A NEWER FANCY HANDLE AND SCABBARD WOULD STILL BE PROFITABLE AFTER PAYING $300.00 FOR IT ON EBAY FOR PARTS. I WISH THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN AS A AUTHENTIC OLD WEAPON EVEN IF INCOMPLETE AND WITH A PLAIN HANDLE IS BETTER THAN A COMPOSIT THAT LOOKS LIKE THE HIGH DOLLAR ONES. THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF RECENT MADE CLUBS SHOWING UP FORTUNATELY MOST ARE REPRESENTED AS SUCH SO FAR.

Last edited by VANDOO : 26th August 2005 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 27th August 2005, 06:52 AM   #51
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I have to say that I have a slight interest in US Civil War and have a foot officer's sword made for the Confederacy. I have seen this go up and then down slightly in market pricing. I have noticed that good Moro pieces are no longer being offered. I wonder if PI (Moro especially) will also go up and down a little. I do know that very good quality pieces will always keep their value.
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