les Apaches-unusual combo revolvers

Atlantia · 27th December 2009, 01:50 PM

Hi Jim,

Thanks mate.
I remember 'donkeys years ago' seeing some documentary about the reality of the 'western shootout' as opposed to the hollywood version we grew up with, and they devoted some time to modifications.
The one that sticks in my mind was seeing revolvers with the barrels cut back to an inch or two. Definately cut too, looked horrible.
Unfortunately, all these years later, I can't remember if any of them were attributed to specific individuals or not.
Thinking about it I can see your points completely, and I wonder if these were more for concealment in clothing than pulling from a rig (bloody memory, wish I could remember where I'd seen them...)
Also, you are of course right about the longer barrels, and I'm sure anyone who'se fired an old gun knows that one of the most striking things about them, is the amount of sparks/smoke and general 'mess'.
cap and ball revolver slow motion
I wonder what (and perhaps one of the 'black powder' enthusiasts could help with this) the potential muzzle velocity would be from these barrel-less weapons? I seriously doubt that even with a very tight seal they'd have much range as there can't be more than an inch of travel before the projectile is exiting. But I bet they'd be scary as hell close-up, especially as a 'stab and shoot' close quarters weapon.
As you quite rightly point out, they're certainly a fire risk! LOL
If the intention was to 'literally' press them into someone and fire, then the energy would be concentrated into the smallest possible area (such as it is). I can imagine them being fairly devastating.

Berkley · 27th December 2009, 02:38 PM

Jim, as always I enjoy your discussions of the weapons of the Old West.
Here's an interesting hideout gun, from the chapter on "Gamblers, Madams, Gunfighters and Outlaws" in R.L. Wilson's excellent book The Peacemakers: Arms and Adventure in the American West:

The cut-off Colt 1860 Army conversion revolver belonging to gunfighter/lawman Dallas Stoudenmire was picked up from the street after he was killed in an El Paso shootout.
Lacking such a detailed provenance are these hideout guns by Smith & Wesson, Colt and National:

This portion of a Colt catalog from 1888, from Guns of the Old West by Charles Edward Chapel, shows several options for concealed carry:

and here's one of the rectangular-cylinder Colt House Pistols, from Colt Firearms by James E. Serven:

As to the effectiveness of such weapons, Wild Bill Hickock had this to say:

Quote:

"I hope you never have to shoot any man, but if you do shoot him in the Guts near the Navel. You may not make a fatal shot, but he will get a shock that will paralyze his brain and arm so much that the fight is all over."

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2009, 05:31 PM

Outstanding!!!! Beautifully done Gene and Berkley, all perfect examples showing that gun barrels were indeed cut down (even absent) for hide out weapons, and Berkley, I had forgotten about those examples in both of those remarkable references.
The Wilson book is entirely breathtaking with photos so clear its as if you are actually viewing the guns in person.
Thank you for the kind words on my wild west posts Berkley, its a topic I have always been deeply fascinated with, and as I have noted, much of my time in the bookmobile takes me along the 'gunfighter trails'. From Texas through New Mexico, Arizona, California....I even spent time in Malta, Montana which is still a small town but loaded with history. Here the Sundance Kid et al robbed the Great Northern train, and the same tracks ride alongside the highway there.

Gene, the fire topic really is interesting, and I recall years ago in Arkansas, I was able to fire a flintlock musket. I have never known much about guns, but what an experience!! There is a moment of anticipation after the click, the hiss and detonation and the sparks, smoke and smell are hard to describe.
You can see how any close range action with black powder could indeed lead to ignition.

Thank you both so much, this really is great to talk more on these unusual aspects of firearms history.

All very best regards,
Jim

27th December 2009, 01:50 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Jim, Thanks mate. I remember 'donkeys years ago' seeing some documentary about the reality of the 'western shootout' as opposed to the hollywood version we grew up with, and they devoted some time to modifications. The one that sticks in my mind was seeing revolvers with the barrels cut back to an inch or two. Definately cut too, looked horrible. Unfortunately, all these years later, I can't remember if any of them were attributed to specific individuals or not. Thinking about it I can see your points completely, and I wonder if these were more for concealment in clothing than pulling from a rig (bloody memory, wish I could remember where I'd seen them...) Also, you are of course right about the longer barrels, and I'm sure anyone who'se fired an old gun knows that one of the most striking things about them, is the amount of sparks/smoke and general 'mess'. cap and ball revolver slow motion I wonder what (and perhaps one of the 'black powder' enthusiasts could help with this) the potential muzzle velocity would be from these barrel-less weapons? I seriously doubt that even with a very tight seal they'd have much range as there can't be more than an inch of travel before the projectile is exiting. But I bet they'd be scary as hell close-up, especially as a 'stab and shoot' close quarters weapon. As you quite rightly point out, they're certainly a fire risk! LOL If the intention was to 'literally' press them into someone and fire, then the energy would be concentrated into the smallest possible area (such as it is). I can imagine them being fairly devastating.

27th December 2009, 05:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,486	Outstanding!!!! Beautifully done Gene and Berkley, all perfect examples showing that gun barrels were indeed cut down (even absent) for hide out weapons, and Berkley, I had forgotten about those examples in both of those remarkable references. The Wilson book is entirely breathtaking with photos so clear its as if you are actually viewing the guns in person. Thank you for the kind words on my wild west posts Berkley, its a topic I have always been deeply fascinated with, and as I have noted, much of my time in the bookmobile takes me along the 'gunfighter trails'. From Texas through New Mexico, Arizona, California....I even spent time in Malta, Montana which is still a small town but loaded with history. Here the Sundance Kid et al robbed the Great Northern train, and the same tracks ride alongside the highway there. Gene, the fire topic really is interesting, and I recall years ago in Arkansas, I was able to fire a flintlock musket. I have never known much about guns, but what an experience!! There is a moment of anticipation after the click, the hiss and detonation and the sparks, smoke and smell are hard to describe. You can see how any close range action with black powder could indeed lead to ignition. Thank you both so much, this really is great to talk more on these unusual aspects of firearms history. All very best regards, Jim