Just a small question that had me very curious...

ThePepperSkull · 23rd December 2009, 06:21 PM

Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about.

In fact, I have a few follow up questions:

Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance?

Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2009, 04:06 AM

Rick

I don't think so.

Consider. I'm thinking in terms of +500 years ago. Javanese makers produced the product and exported to other countries, possibly even as far as Sri Lanka. Since those original exports, those other countries learnt to make their own keris, and developed their own styles. At the time of early export, there was no local style for Javanese makers to copy.

David

The word "keris" can refer to either the blade alone, more correctly termed wilah, or the entire keris including scabbard and hilt. The form of the dress determines whether we call any particular keris a Jogja keris, or Solo keris, or a Cirebon keris, however, in the case where a keris from a particular area is fitted with a blade from an area other than the one that covers the dress , we would classify the blade when broke down the keris into its separate parts, so we could have a Surakarta ladrangan, pendok blewah, jejeran yudowinatan, wilah Madura sepuh ( or Bugis, or Bali, or whatever).

Pepperskull

Response interpolated:-

Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about.

In fact, I have a few follow up questions:

Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another?

I do not understand the question.

Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance?

Depends upon the situation.
In a western setting, who cares?
In a village setting it probably doesn't matter much.
In a city setting where the city is under the influence of a court, anything other than the court approved style will make the wearer look silly
In a court setting ? Who knows ? Demotion? Write out ten thousand times:- I will not make myself look like a fool? Pick up rubbish in the alun2 after Friday prayers?

Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade?

Who knows?

Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

Must be more specific than "Indonesian" .
The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old".
The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do.

From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

Rick · 24th December 2009, 04:43 PM

A.G.M.
"From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little."

Yeah, I put the old Bondolan hilt back on my Ligan; no uwer .

The wood and blade are eloquent enough on their own .

I might be coming 'round a bit .

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2009, 08:39 PM

I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge.

Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans.

Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos.

Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos.

These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad.

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

David · 24th December 2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

I whole-heartedly agree here. I have myself been insistent in placing a uwer on a Bali keris that may or may not have originally had one, but this is, at least in my mind, well within general custom. I must say that i don't really understand the collector who is willing to combine dress in unusual ways to meet their own western sensibilities. For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from.

Naga Sasra · 24th December 2009, 11:31 PM

Well said David !

ThePepperSkull · 25th December 2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Must be more specific than "Indonesian" .
The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old".
The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do.

An interesting point you bring up. I appreciate that response, as it makes me want to do even more research into Indonesian/Malay history.

My expertise until recently has been of filipino edged weaponry (more specifically from the visayas and of Luzon), but I have been heading progressively into a more malay direction in my hobby. First by doing research into Moro Weaponry and Mindanao history, then going into a little bruneian and borneo research because of my passion for the Moro Kris. This brought me into the Keris Worung Kopi area of these forums as I attempt to learn more about its predecessor, the Keris.

Not until recently have I discovered how far-reaching this blade style has gone and how much it has influenced culture in areas of southeast asia. I'm hooked on reading and learning about it!

I would rephrase my question, but you and others have more than adequately answered it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge.

Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans.

Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos.

Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos.

These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad.

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I whole-heartedly agree here. I have myself been insistent in placing a uwer on a Bali keris that may or may not have originally had one, but this is, at least in my mind, well within general custom. I must say that i don't really understand the collector who is willing to combine dress in unusual ways to meet their own western sensibilities. For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from.

Very interesting input! I love picking your brains on this subject. the more answers I get, the more questions I get out of it! You're all a wealth of information that makes me glad I found this forum.

Another follow-up question: What combinations of parts in particular (other than the ones you have already mentioned) tend to make you guys (as more than just collectors, but collector-scholars/research hobbyists) cringe?

The reason I ask is that I recently acquired a keris that was beautiful to my untrained eye, but after some research I thought a bit unusual. The Warangka and Pendok struck me as distinctly Surakarta, whereas the Ukiran looked of Balinese origin. It didn't seem like a mistake that they were put together, however, as both warangka and ukiran are made of black horn, and the Pendok and inlay of the Ukiran are both silver with plant/flower engravings (called okir for such decorations on moro kris, but I am unsure of what term to use for the Keris)

I contacted the seller but have not yet recieved a response. I do know that the blade and the sheath are newer made pieces, however. It just struck me as very odd that a balinese hilt was joined with a Surakarta sheath. There is a bit more patination on the silver inlay of the hilt however, which prompts me to believe that it is older.

David · 25th December 2009, 07:52 AM

Pepperskull, why don't you upload some photos of this keris. It would be much easier to discuss if we could all get a look at it.

23rd December 2009, 06:21 PM	#1
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about. In fact, I have a few follow up questions: Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance? Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

24th December 2009, 04:06 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Rick I don't think so. Consider. I'm thinking in terms of +500 years ago. Javanese makers produced the product and exported to other countries, possibly even as far as Sri Lanka. Since those original exports, those other countries learnt to make their own keris, and developed their own styles. At the time of early export, there was no local style for Javanese makers to copy. David The word "keris" can refer to either the blade alone, more correctly termed wilah, or the entire keris including scabbard and hilt. The form of the dress determines whether we call any particular keris a Jogja keris, or Solo keris, or a Cirebon keris, however, in the case where a keris from a particular area is fitted with a blade from an area other than the one that covers the dress , we would classify the blade when broke down the keris into its separate parts, so we could have a Surakarta ladrangan, pendok blewah, jejeran yudowinatan, wilah Madura sepuh ( or Bugis, or Bali, or whatever). Pepperskull Response interpolated:- Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about. In fact, I have a few follow up questions: Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? I do not understand the question. Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance? Depends upon the situation. In a western setting, who cares? In a village setting it probably doesn't matter much. In a city setting where the city is under the influence of a court, anything other than the court approved style will make the wearer look silly In a court setting ? Who knows ? Demotion? Write out ten thousand times:- I will not make myself look like a fool? Pick up rubbish in the alun2 after Friday prayers? Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Who knows? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices? Must be more specific than "Indonesian" . The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old". The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do. From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

24th December 2009, 04:43 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A.G.M. "From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little." Yeah, I put the old Bondolan hilt back on my Ligan; no uwer . The wood and blade are eloquent enough on their own . I might be coming 'round a bit .

24th December 2009, 08:39 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge. Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans. Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos. Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos. These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad. If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

24th December 2009, 11:31 PM	#6
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Well said David !

25th December 2009, 07:52 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Pepperskull, why don't you upload some photos of this keris. It would be much easier to discuss if we could all get a look at it.