Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

Ian Knight · 17th December 2009, 06:49 PM

Hello Fernando & Celtan,
Thank you both for your kind welcome.
Fernando, I think that you are correct. It is more than likely the 2nd regiment rather than the eleventh. Do you know of any Peninsular battle in which this regiment were present?
I have been desperate to acquire a British P1796 HC sword which are normally out of my price range. My only concern with this one is the fact that the blade has been ground down quite a bit to allow it to fit the French MK 2 scabbard. I wish that I could have bought the sword with the scabbard as together they tell an interesting story. Apart, they are two separate items that show abuse.

Now I need to find a British scabbard to go with the sword.

How do you feel about the grip? Should I take the sword apart and fit a new one or leave as is? The grip has probably been added at a much later date.
Ian

fernando · 18th December 2009, 05:43 PM

Hi Ian,

Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan

) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks.
In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results.
Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle.
I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war.
On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture.
But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword.
Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion

.
On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations

.

Fernando

.

Ian Knight · 18th December 2009, 06:15 PM

Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself.

I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter?

I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions.
Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart.
Ian

celtan · 18th December 2009, 09:01 PM

An M?

Ian Knight · 19th December 2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Norman McCormick · 19th December 2009, 07:07 PM

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop".

Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Ian Knight · 20th December 2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop".

Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman,
I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment.

I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable.
They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword.
I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest?
I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does.
Ian

fernando · 20th December 2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s

.

Fernando

.

Ian Knight · 20th December 2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s

.

Fernando

.

Thanks Fernando. I'll have a good look with a magnifying glass.
Ian

Ian Knight · 12th January 2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s

.

Fernando

.

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

18th December 2009, 05:43 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Ian, Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan ) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks. In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results. Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle. I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war. On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture. But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword. Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion . On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations . Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 18th December 2009 at 07:13 PM.

18th December 2009, 06:15 PM	#3
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself. I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter? I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions. Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart. Ian Attached Images Last edited by Ian Knight; 19th December 2009 at 08:07 AM.

17th December 2009, 06:49 PM	#1
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Fernando & Celtan, Thank you both for your kind welcome. Fernando, I think that you are correct. It is more than likely the 2nd regiment rather than the eleventh. Do you know of any Peninsular battle in which this regiment were present? I have been desperate to acquire a British P1796 HC sword which are normally out of my price range. My only concern with this one is the fact that the blade has been ground down quite a bit to allow it to fit the French MK 2 scabbard. I wish that I could have bought the sword with the scabbard as together they tell an interesting story. Apart, they are two separate items that show abuse. Now I need to find a British scabbard to go with the sword. How do you feel about the grip? Should I take the sword apart and fit a new one or leave as is? The grip has probably been added at a much later date. Ian

18th December 2009, 09:01 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	An M?

19th December 2009, 07:07 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi Ian, Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it. My Regards, Norman.