Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[fernando]

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Hello Fernando & Celtan,
Thank you both for your kind welcome.
Fernando, I think that you are correct. It is more than likely the 2nd regiment rather than the eleventh. Do you know of any Peninsular battle in which this regiment were present?
I have been desperate to acquire a British P1796 HC sword which are normally out of my price range. My only concern with this one is the fact that the blade has been ground down quite a bit to allow it to fit the French MK 2 scabbard. I wish that I could have bought the sword with the scabbard as together they tell an interesting story. Apart, they are two separate items that show abuse.
Now I need to find a British scabbard to go with the sword.
How do you feel about the grip? Should I take the sword apart and fit a new one or leave as is? The grip has probably been added at a much later date.
Ian

[fernando]

Hi Ian,

Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan ) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks.
In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results.
Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle.
I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war.
On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture.
But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword.
Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion .
On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations .

Fernando

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[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself.

I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter?

I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions.
Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart.
Ian

[celtan]

An M?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

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[celtan]

Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )



I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset, which explains Spain's attacks on your country at the very beginning. Spain became an reticent Napoleon's ally only after the British Navy attacked a Spanish Convoy during Peace Time, forcing the country into an open confrontation with England and their allies.

Besides, this sword is _British_. I find it difficult to internalize the concept of the Brits arming a Portuguese unit that would serve Ol'Nappy.



Since Portuguese and Spanish Military abbreviations seem identical, couldn't this be a Spanish sword obtained as British military assistance, after Spain was invaded by Nappy, and they became enemies?

The relations between Spanish, French, Portuguese and British during the Napoleonic Wars were incredibly complex, and sometimes downright bizarre,

Best

¡ Oro,Vino y Mujeres..!



M

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[celtan]

Nando,

I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion".

In Spain even after the French invaded the country, there still were many "afrancesados" who actively supported Napoleon and his Brother, "Pepe Botella". There even was a Hussar Corps that continued serving the French.

After the French were defeated in the peninsula, those either fled to France or perished in the hands of the civilian irregulars. it was a bloody affair, just like everything else related to that damned war. The way I see it, basically, every one of the parties involved in same behaved abominably...

Then, similar things happened during the American Revolution, Yugoslavia, The-hundred-years-War, post-WWII France etc...

Coming to think of it, while all wars are nasty affairs, some are worse than others, specially when they have a civilan/partisan component to them.

Just ramblin' !

In fact, I still have a couple french pieces from those days.

Merry Xmas!

M

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )



I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset...

M

[fernando]

Hi Manolo

Originally Posted by celtan

... I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion". ... Merry Xmas!...

Concerning the LEGIÃO PORTUGUESA:

It all started when Portugal decided not to agree with the Continental blockade, which would inhibit the British ships to touch continental lands, besides arresting resident British subjects and confiscate their patrimony. In view if that, the French promoted in October 1807 the Fontainebleau treaty, signed by Duroc, on behalf of Napoleon and Eugénio Isquierdo for Carlos IV of Spain, at where was decided to split Portugal in three parts. Northern Lusitania to be ruled by the King of dismantled Etrúria , the Algarves by the Spaniard Manuel Godoy and the country centre by the French.
To enforce this, Napoleon sent to Lisbon an army of 20000 men, commanded by Junot.
Meanwhile the Portuguese prince regent, later King Dom João VI, adviced by the British, escaped to Brazil, accompanied by all his court, some troops and all possible wealth, being escorted by a British fleet.
His mediocre behaviour included the advice to the people he left behind to receive the French as being their friends.
This way the first regiments of Junot army arrived in Lisbon all ragged, disarmed and exausted by starve, caused by the violent march, in a rush to try and catch the Portuguese prince still in Lisbon, which didn’t happen for a couple miles. The major part of the forces was still struggling to overcome the difficult routes of Beira and Estremadura. Finding no resistance by the Portuguese, Junot immediately took control of the capital and started discharging the then weak Portuguese army, sending the men home and retaining the best elements, in order to form a corpse of five to six thousand, sending them to France in groups of one thousand each, making them to swear oath to Napoleon. These guys have then being in campaign from Wagram to Moscow.
The Portuguese legion was extinguished in 1813.
The history of the formation till the extinction of this force is rather well documented in a book written by P. Boppe, of which i have a copy in French. I don’t remember why i have acquired this work, as illiterate as i am; must have been when i went through a phase of reading about the French Invasions (so called Peninsular War).




Feliz navidad to you too

Fernando

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[celtan]

The Spanish had a similar unit under the Marques de La Romana, serving in Denmark. They were auppossed to be used in the invasion of Sweden under... Marcellin Marbot?

Instead, after Spain was invaded by her former ally, they turned their backs on the French and left in British ships, eventually arriving at the Peninsular theatre. Of course, the Brits would say, "serves her right", but then, Spain didn't want to get into that war at all.

Reminds me of Italy and Rumania in WWII.

All this stuff about fighting between former comrades-in-arms, and playing kissy-kissy with a previous enemy, albeit justifiably so, makes me ...queasy.

Someone once said that it's easier to write Science Fiction than Historic literature, because Sci-Fi at least needs to make sense...

Felices Navidades to y'all!

M

My German descendant of Ian's m1796

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Nice to see you here. The 1796 L.C. sabre grip has worked out really well, the orders will be rolling in soon. I hope you enjoy your time here at the E.A. and I look forward to seeing examples in your collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Hello Norman,
Thank you for your kind welcome.
My interest is in swords of the Napoleonic Wars although my collection is very small.
My pride and joy is a French AN XI heavy cavalry (Cuirassier's) sabre dated 1810. It has its original and rare MK 2 iron scabbard. The blade has the even rarer 'hatchet' point. It is the second from the top.
Ian