M1840 Saber Spine Mark

[celtan]

Hi Jim!

'Lee surrendered, I didnt'

: )

I was in CAP in the 70s, and whenever we had an encampment, I had to be careful not to mix southern and northern cadets from rural areas in the same Flight. Amazingly, the war was ideologically still going on for them.

Puerto Rico has been an US territory for more than a century, and yet some locals are still fighting the SAW of 98'. If you visit Spain, you'll see how the Left and the Right are coming back to very same old Boxing Ring.

ca plus le change...

The sword was logically given after the event. What I wonder is, what happened to Wallace himself after the battle?. His femur was broken, that kinda' wound would either incapacitate him for active duty for at least a year, or require amputation. What happened to the poor guy afterward?

Also, the fallen Captain of Company A was named William Wallace. Brothers? Cousins? John had been with the 61st since its creation in 62, so it wouldn't surprise me if he brought a blood-relative to command Co. A. All were from Norfolk County, VA.

Best, and Merry Xmas to y'all!



M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow!! Manolo, that is incredibly impressive and I'm glad you showed us the rest of the sword. Obviously an extremely nice commemorative sword issued at some point later to either Captain Wallace or his survivors, and to the importance of that event.
I wouldn't spend a great deal of money on a book that esoteric simply to establish a single reference, especially these days with the computer etc. It was rough in the old days when we did it that way, ouch!

I would get hold of a reenactment group, who have thier historians for particular units constantly researching those who served in the units. Geneology groups are especially good as well, with Virginia being profoundly thorough. Often it is easier to obtain the capsulated unit histories of the regiments that are more focused and far less costly as far as I know.

My great great grandfather was in the 2nd US Sharpshooters in the Civil War, and I dropped a bundle to obtain a couple of books on this unit.....all I found was a single line where his name appeared. Interesting history, but none specific I could relate to him, and this was a key unit, one of only two known as Berdan's Sharpshooters.

Also I would contact historical societies near the location of that battle. If I recall correctly from that research long ago, my grandfather was there as well. When I lived in Nashville there was Civil War history everyplace!!! and I was often corrected that it was 'The War Between the States' , not the Civil War, and of course the motto, 'Lee surrendered, I didnt' everyplace
History lives passionately in many such places, and I'm sure such records should be reasonably accessible without such expensive books.

As impressive sabre Manolo, well worth the research to pursue.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Thanks for more background on the sword. One other thin g I wonder about is the apparent cleaning of the oxidation from the ricasso up that is shown in this attachment. Something is odd to me about that trait but perhaps meaningless (except someone was scrubbing off rust at some point)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=52669&stc=1

Again, I have no reason to doubt you see other markings there, I just can't see them or reconcile what you see of them. You mention it to be quite like the French markings but it is pretty obviously not a French built sword.

I'll poke about regarding the character a bit, as I have some other leads I often peruse. Thanks a lot for the entire sword as you have been able to provide it. I somehow hate to get one the teeniest of information regarding an item without as much background as possible.

Cheers

GC

[Hotspur]

A start here. He was too young to have had an early S&K in the Mexican war but look to this as his war sword and what the first issue of it was. Likely prewar militia arsenal stores. His entire bio should come up pretty easily. A number over S&K may be exactly what you are seeing on the spine (my first post). Then again, it could be just about anyone's trophy to begin with.

John G. Wallace. Papers, 1840–1910. Accession 41524.
Papers, 1861–1865, of John G. Wallace (1840–1910) of Norfolk County, Virginia, while serving as captain in the 61st Virginia Infantry. Includes accounts, certificates, vouchers, daybook, orders, ordnance records, receipts, regulations and instructions, published manuals and guides, clippings, clothing rolls, payrolls, muster rolls, and other items.

http://www.lva.virginia.gov/public/g...r/Soldiers.htm

Wrong John Wallace mebbe

[celtan]

No, it's the right John Wallace. There was only one John Wallace serving in the 61st at Cold Harbor. Specially when you add the other details as rank and being in C Company, the Blanchard Grays. AFAIK, no other John Wallace ever served with them. That's what I wanted to confirm through the actual regimental roster.

The only caveat is that the sword states W as John's middle initial, a mistake?. It's not that farfetched, since the letters W and G in cursive handwriting (specially if stylized), look similar. Either the sword art or the documents themselves are wrong. That's another thing I need to clear.

G, I'm always learning. I though that when you commissioned a presentation sword, you always used a new sword, since the etching needed to be done at the manufacturer/forge level. Am I wrong? I have never etched anything. Are you saying that old blades were etched too?

Thank you kindly for your assistance, now I know that John survived the War !

Best-est regards

Manuel

Originally Posted by Hotspur

A start here. He was too young to have had an early S&K in the Mexican war but look to this as his war sword and what the first issue of it was. Likely prewar militia arsenal stores. His entire bio should come up pretty easily. A number over S&K may be exactly what you are seeing on the spine (my first post). Then again, it could be just about anyone's trophy to begin with.

John G. Wallace. Papers, 1840–1910. Accession 41524.
Papers, 1861–1865, of John G. Wallace (1840–1910) of Norfolk County, Virginia, while serving as captain in the 61st Virginia Infantry. Includes accounts, certificates, vouchers, daybook, orders, ordnance records, receipts, regulations and instructions, published manuals and guides, clippings, clothing rolls, payrolls, muster rolls, and other items.

http://www.lva.virginia.gov/public/g...r/Soldiers.htm

Wrong John Wallace mebbe

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done guys! Its great to see more on this swords history unfolding, and I really like the teamwork
Glen, its nice to have you here posting again, especially on this topic, as your knowledge and background with American swords has long been well established. Thank you for bringing it in on this one.

Manolo, thanks again for sharing this....we really dont get to see much on the Confederate weapons, and regardless of what side anybody was on...the entire history of it all is monumentally moving. After growing up in essentially a Northern environment, and living the past decades essentially in the South from Tennessee to Texas, I honestly see a larger perspective. I think Sherman had it right, "..it is good that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it".

Thank you for the great Christmas wreath and greetings!!! and wishing you and yours wonderful holidays as well.

All the very best guys!
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Guys, interesting news,

Just got my digital copy of three books written about Norfolk, VA.
In one of them I found this tasty tidbit:


THE H I S T O R Y OF NORFOLK, VIRGINIA

A review of Important Events and Incidents which occurred from 1736 to 1877

BY H. W. BURTON, .

" HARRY SCRATCH” OF THE NORFOLK VIRGINIAN.

NORFOLK, VA.

Norfolk Virginian Job Print; 36 and 38 Roanoke Avenue., 1877

page 93

/"...the charge, about fifty yards from ihe ditch, Captain John W. Wallace, of Company C, Sixty-first Virginia Regiment, was stricken down with a broken thigh. He lay upon his back, refusing to allow his men to take him from the field till the battle was over, waving his hat and urging his men to " Go on; go forward ."/

So it seems that some documents refer to Captain Wallace as John W., yet others refer to him as John G., which makes my suspicion this is a matter of a W/G cursive handwriting misinterpretation very likely.


Now, which one would be the correct version?




Manuel

[Hotspur]

Good find,

Something else to consider is that the William mentioned, may well be the John W. Wallace of the blade. I have not spent more than superficial time with this but this William Wallace was (iirc) from the Carolinas (google notes of). It is and was no surprise to have folk going by their middle name and not their first (or Christian) name. My family was no different in the Americas of the 19th century and continues today with me often referred to as Alan (my middle name), just as my father Alan was more often referred to as Robert (his middle name). I have come across it even in musters of the American Civil War and company records differing from enlistment lists (the commander's notes sometimes using the middle names). In a sense, some of this also goes back to surname and descendants of the UK history with Mc and Mac.

I would (if me) pursue both Wallaces until better reckoning of the sword might be made.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

GC

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys, interesting news,

Just got my digital copy of three books written about Norfolk, VA.
In one of them I found this tasty tidbit:


THE H I S T O R Y OF NORFOLK, VIRGINIA

A review of Important Events and Incidents which occurred from 1736 to 1877

BY H. W. BURTON, .

" HARRY SCRATCH” OF THE NORFOLK VIRGINIAN.

NORFOLK, VA.

Norfolk Virginian Job Print; 36 and 38 Roanoke Avenue., 1877

page 93

/"...the charge, about fifty yards from ihe ditch, Captain John W. Wallace, of Company C, Sixty-first Virginia Regiment, was stricken down with a broken thigh. He lay upon his back, refusing to allow his men to take him from the field till the battle was over, waving his hat and urging his men to " Go on; go forward ."/

So it seems that some documents refer to Captain Wallace as John W., yet others refer to him as John G., which makes my suspicion this is a matter of a W/G cursive handwriting misinterpretation very likely.


Now, which one would be the correct version?




Manuel

[celtan]

Very observant. I confess, I am the guilty party. The sword was gray black and I couldn't see the etchings well.

Used fine wire-mesh to clean _some_ of it, still has a dark grayish shade. I didn't remove the ricasso's rust because there's nothing inscribed there...

I agrre it's not french, they were sticklers to detail, and left all sorts of inscriptions to denote manufacture, provenance, inspections etc....Haven't seen any of those.

Thanks for your assistance, I just did not want to saddle our merry troupe with one of those all-emcompassing questions "What is this sword"?, so I merely asked about the mark.

Best regards

M

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Thanks for more background on the sword. One other thin g I wonder about is the apparent cleaning of the oxidation from the ricasso up that is shown in this attachment. Something is odd to me about that trait but perhaps meaningless (except someone was scrubbing off rust at some point)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=52669&stc=1

Again, I have no reason to doubt you see other markings there, I just can't see them or reconcile what you see of them. You mention it to be quite like the French markings but it is pretty obviously not a French built sword.

I'll poke about regarding the character a bit, as I have some other leads I often peruse. Thanks a lot for the entire sword as you have been able to provide it. I somehow hate to get one the teeniest of information regarding an item without as much background as possible.

Cheers

GC