Balinese Hilt Help Requested

Rick · 19th May 2005, 02:48 PM

Must be Spring in Cincy eh ?

You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club .

Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 03:59 PM

Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright!

Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai:
http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

Rick · 19th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright!

Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai:
http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

Still Winter here .

Too bad there are no effigys present at the Bat cave Robin .

RobT · 21st May 2005, 04:03 AM

Thanks for all your responses. I am gratified that my first thread has engendered interest and am sure we will gain understanding as a result. To that purpose I will try to reply to your comments and questions thus far.
BluErf: The creature has what appear to be wings. Whether the diagonal striations on the wings are meant to depict feathers or are just decorative I can't say. I can say that my first overall impression was bat, not bird and judging by the responses to this thread I am not alone in that. The legs are definately human as tom hyle's reference to thighs and shins points out. The feet are mammal, not bird shaped with four claws showing.
VANDOO: Your maintenance tips are about as far as I intend to go for now. I'm pretty conversant with amber in both translucent and opaque forms and I'm sure the ukiran is neither. I might try a hot pin on the inside of the peksi hole. Thanks for the mendak offer, I may take you up on that when I know more about the piece. I am in complete agreement with your fruit bat observation and since some fruit bats are called flying foxes, I thought the ukiran might be an akso in flying form. (Provided such a creature exists in the folklore.)
nechesh: The tail reminded me of Hanuman also but the rest of the creature doesn't. All the images of Hanuman I can recall seeing give the general impression of benevelent strength. I don't get that feeling of good from my hulu. Strength yes, good maybe sometimes yes, maybe sometimes no. I have to check out the flying monkeys from Oz. (Strangely enough my friend who has the movie, was talking about them in a different context just the other day.) In regards to Hanuman, it should be noted that the flying monkeys are the servants of the Wicked Witch and are most likely styled to look the part. I would be surprised to see a similar aspect on a heroic character. If the hulu is made of a natural material, it's nothing I'm familiar with as a collector of blades from Africa, the middle and far east, and eastern Europe. I have taken the hulu off but have seen nothing that would give me a clue as to its makeup. Although I have some realgar, blade etching will wait until I have perfected my technique on a few blades of lesser quality and condition. Thanks for the link to the Pura Goa Lawak cave. I had heard about the the cave and the ceremonies surrounding it from an Indonesian shopkeeper in Montreal but he couldn't recall the name of the cave.
tom hyle: Sorry the pictures aren't coming up for you. They're all there when I call up the thread. As you and others have mentioned, the fruit bat resemblance is strong. Perhaps in Indonesia, with its large number of fruit bats, it's not an atypical representation. I don't think the hulu is stone. It's almost as light as balsa wood. The dark brown could indeed have been an applied finish or an applied base coat for a finish. Whether it was deliberately removed or just wore off I can't say. As I said in my reply to nechesh, I just can't see this creature as Hanuman, for me it radiates too much malevelence. You said it yourself; "the Wicked Witch has been to Bali". The two round protrusions above the hands are the curled ends of locks of hair flanking the face. Those rows of lines around thigh and shin carry the same striations as on the bottom of the wings. I had assumed that they were continuations of the wings.
Rick: As you can see from my replys to nechesh and tom hyle, I have difficulty with the Hanuman idea. I agree with you in that all the human form phalli on bali hulu that I have seen are unmistakable as such. What about the depiction of a bat or dog member? The penis on my hulu looks appropriate for a dog or bat to me. As you say, perhaps what appears to be a phallus is in reality a waist cloth knot but aside from the necklace, I can't see any evidence of clothing on the creature and in a larger sense I get the feeling that this creature has no need for garments that preserve modesty.
Sincerely,
RobT

tom hyle · 21st May 2005, 10:12 AM

The pics are all there now; it's probably my computer; its protection may be set too high. That pompadour; if it's not the top of a monkey or ape what is it? Oceanic SE Asian humans do not traditionally wear such a hairstyle? Nor do bats? The detail in the pubic area looks to me like a non detailed depiction of nonaroused male genitalia; more or less triangular, more pointed and more attached at the top, perhaps pendulous underneath. I don't know that I would think of a loincloth as neccessarily meant to preserve modesty; IMHO that kind of taboo came FROM the wearing of garments; did not cause it; any man who has run thru brush nude can tell you the utility of a loincloth. Note as well that the bindings on legs and arms seem to be joined by the stripe going down the sides. This is not entirely outside of the realm of a tatoo "suit"? Note the marks on the belly; hair or tatoos? Note that the hands rest upon the "harness", perhaps as if steadying it.

VANDOO · 21st May 2005, 07:58 PM

I COULDN'T FIND A GOOD PICTURE OF THE FACE BUT I THINK THIS IS THE CREATURE FEATURED ON THE KERIS HANDLE.

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 02:39 AM

Vandoo:

I think you are correct -- the animal depicted in the hilt appears to be a form of fruit bat. Many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, Australia, we had a house opposite a small park that had several very old Morton Bay Fig trees. In the summer the fruit bats (a very large form of bat) would nest at night in the trees and eat the figs. Their chattering would keep us awake at night -- no air conditioning in our old Victorian house, so we slept with the windows open. The noise was bad enough, but the odor of these bats was overpowering if you ventured into the park.

"Tasty" is not a word I would associate with fruit bats!

Ian.

BluErf · 22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM

Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter.

The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak.

But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob'

The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle.

19th May 2005, 02:48 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Sigh ........ Must be Spring in Cincy eh ? You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club . Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

21st May 2005, 04:03 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 563	responses Thanks for all your responses. I am gratified that my first thread has engendered interest and am sure we will gain understanding as a result. To that purpose I will try to reply to your comments and questions thus far. BluErf: The creature has what appear to be wings. Whether the diagonal striations on the wings are meant to depict feathers or are just decorative I can't say. I can say that my first overall impression was bat, not bird and judging by the responses to this thread I am not alone in that. The legs are definately human as tom hyle's reference to thighs and shins points out. The feet are mammal, not bird shaped with four claws showing. VANDOO: Your maintenance tips are about as far as I intend to go for now. I'm pretty conversant with amber in both translucent and opaque forms and I'm sure the ukiran is neither. I might try a hot pin on the inside of the peksi hole. Thanks for the mendak offer, I may take you up on that when I know more about the piece. I am in complete agreement with your fruit bat observation and since some fruit bats are called flying foxes, I thought the ukiran might be an akso in flying form. (Provided such a creature exists in the folklore.) nechesh: The tail reminded me of Hanuman also but the rest of the creature doesn't. All the images of Hanuman I can recall seeing give the general impression of benevelent strength. I don't get that feeling of good from my hulu. Strength yes, good maybe sometimes yes, maybe sometimes no. I have to check out the flying monkeys from Oz. (Strangely enough my friend who has the movie, was talking about them in a different context just the other day.) In regards to Hanuman, it should be noted that the flying monkeys are the servants of the Wicked Witch and are most likely styled to look the part. I would be surprised to see a similar aspect on a heroic character. If the hulu is made of a natural material, it's nothing I'm familiar with as a collector of blades from Africa, the middle and far east, and eastern Europe. I have taken the hulu off but have seen nothing that would give me a clue as to its makeup. Although I have some realgar, blade etching will wait until I have perfected my technique on a few blades of lesser quality and condition. Thanks for the link to the Pura Goa Lawak cave. I had heard about the the cave and the ceremonies surrounding it from an Indonesian shopkeeper in Montreal but he couldn't recall the name of the cave. tom hyle: Sorry the pictures aren't coming up for you. They're all there when I call up the thread. As you and others have mentioned, the fruit bat resemblance is strong. Perhaps in Indonesia, with its large number of fruit bats, it's not an atypical representation. I don't think the hulu is stone. It's almost as light as balsa wood. The dark brown could indeed have been an applied finish or an applied base coat for a finish. Whether it was deliberately removed or just wore off I can't say. As I said in my reply to nechesh, I just can't see this creature as Hanuman, for me it radiates too much malevelence. You said it yourself; "the Wicked Witch has been to Bali". The two round protrusions above the hands are the curled ends of locks of hair flanking the face. Those rows of lines around thigh and shin carry the same striations as on the bottom of the wings. I had assumed that they were continuations of the wings. Rick: As you can see from my replys to nechesh and tom hyle, I have difficulty with the Hanuman idea. I agree with you in that all the human form phalli on bali hulu that I have seen are unmistakable as such. What about the depiction of a bat or dog member? The penis on my hulu looks appropriate for a dog or bat to me. As you say, perhaps what appears to be a phallus is in reality a waist cloth knot but aside from the necklace, I can't see any evidence of clothing on the creature and in a larger sense I get the feeling that this creature has no need for garments that preserve modesty. Sincerely, RobT

21st May 2005, 07:58 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LARGE AND TASTY GREY HEADED FRUIT BAT I COULDN'T FIND A GOOD PICTURE OF THE FACE BUT I THINK THIS IS THE CREATURE FEATURED ON THE KERIS HANDLE. Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter. The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak. But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob' The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle. Attached Images

19th May 2005, 03:59 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright! Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai: http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

21st May 2005, 10:12 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The pics are all there now; it's probably my computer; its protection may be set too high. That pompadour; if it's not the top of a monkey or ape what is it? Oceanic SE Asian humans do not traditionally wear such a hairstyle? Nor do bats? The detail in the pubic area looks to me like a non detailed depiction of nonaroused male genitalia; more or less triangular, more pointed and more attached at the top, perhaps pendulous underneath. I don't know that I would think of a loincloth as neccessarily meant to preserve modesty; IMHO that kind of taboo came FROM the wearing of garments; did not cause it; any man who has run thru brush nude can tell you the utility of a loincloth. Note as well that the bindings on legs and arms seem to be joined by the stripe going down the sides. This is not entirely outside of the realm of a tatoo "suit"? Note the marks on the belly; hair or tatoos? Note that the hands rest upon the "harness", perhaps as if steadying it.

22nd May 2005, 02:39 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Vandoo: I think you are correct -- the animal depicted in the hilt appears to be a form of fruit bat. Many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, Australia, we had a house opposite a small park that had several very old Morton Bay Fig trees. In the summer the fruit bats (a very large form of bat) would nest at night in the trees and eat the figs. Their chattering would keep us awake at night -- no air conditioning in our old Victorian house, so we slept with the windows open. The noise was bad enough, but the odor of these bats was overpowering if you ventured into the park. "Tasty" is not a word I would associate with fruit bats! Ian.