NIMCHA WITH EUROPEAN BLADE????

RSWORD · 12th December 2009, 02:20 PM

Another possible origin for your blade is India. I have seen quite a few blades of this form with the same markings, which were made in imitation of European markings, and in my opinion this entire ensemble is more likely to date to the 19th century rather than much earlier. Out of curiosity, does the spine from the hilt to the point it drops down towards the middle of the blade made with a recess or groove?

Rick · 12th December 2009, 04:24 PM

Marks on a Kirach blade .
I'd vote for India as the source also .

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2009, 04:47 PM

India exported a lot of steel and blades to Arabia and the African east coast from very early times, and the way the blade is looking, I think India may be a possible place of origin.
Jens

Rick · 12th December 2009, 05:45 PM

More similar marks .
These from this Tulwar .

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2009, 05:59 PM

Great example Ilias......and of what appears to be an Arabian style 'nimcha' or sa'if with multi quilloned hilt. On the blade, I very much agree with the excellent points made by Rsword (Rick), Jens and Rick in the plausibly Indian blade. Whatever the case, it is indeed a trade blade, and most likely of 19th century as noted.

Mauro's example is another excellent example of Arab style nimcha which has become known as the 'Zanzibar' form, from the distinct ring on the crossguard, identified from the Buttin collection (Rumilly, 1933, examples 998-1002). It appears to be a genuinely early example, as shown in these in this catalog.

The pommels on these reflect the styles on Arab hilts from 18th into 19th century in Hadhramaut and Yemen, and the 'Zanzibar' type sabres were typically very much 18th and 19th century products carried in the Omani trade from that Sultanate, perhaps into early 20th century.

During these times, the Arab trade carried swords and blades from the west coast Malabar regions to Arabia and into the Red Sea trade routes. It would therefore seem quite plausible that such blades, very much favored by the well known pirate groups on the eastern littoral of Arabia would have been a sound possibility for Ilias' sword. Sabres with this widened tip blade are seen in Elgood's book on Arabian arms, and with varying open hilt styles also of the 'karabela' profile.

The 'Zanzibar' style hilt of Mauro's sword is of the form noted from the Buttin reference and these were notably prevalent in Yemen in the latter 19th century. A large group of these were discovered in a Yemeni armoury in recent times. Although Buttin's catalog suggests 17th-18th century for these, the period was a benchmark for the form which seems to derive from earlier Italian hilts which of course were well known in these trade routes.
In looking at Mauro's outstanding example, I very much believe it is likely a 17th century example, which well supports the early period for these types which were produced in that tradition into the later periods noted.

The markings seen are interpretations of early examples from Italian blades which were of course quality and guild associated, and were adopted by many native smiths to presumably imbue certain talismanic properties and suggest quality.

It is interesting to note the variations of these remarkably similar nimcha types, and distinguish them from the more familiar Moroccan sa'if. As always, with the profound trade and colonization through these centuries and in these regions, the forms diffused widely.

All best regards,
Jim

ilias · 13th December 2009, 12:01 PM

I am sorry for my late reply but due to some internet problems I couldn't answer.
Thanks everybody for the informations that you gave me.
As i see I must say "goodbye" at the 17th-18th c.

Nevermind I still like the blade form of that sword.
Rsword.Yes at the spine there is a groove.Does it states that it is an Indian blade?
All the best
Ilias

RSWORD · 13th December 2009, 02:56 PM

Hi Ilias,

Yes, that groove in the spine adds further evidence that this is most probably an Indian blade and I suspected it to be there due to the overall shape of the blade. These grooves in the spine are found in Indian swords and also but more rarely on Chinese and East European swords. The blade on this example is most probably a pattern welded blade but wootz would not be out of the question. Take it out in the sunlight and have a close look at the blade, angling it in the sunlight and you may be able to make out some patterning in the blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th December 2009, 03:46 PM

Ilias, try to have a look at this blade form. It is not quite like yours, but it is in the same style, the blade being broader towards the tip.

12th December 2009, 04:24 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Marks on a Kirach blade . I'd vote for India as the source also . Attached Images

12th December 2009, 05:45 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	More similar marks . These from this Tulwar . Attached Images

13th December 2009, 03:46 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ilias, try to have a look at this blade form. It is not quite like yours, but it is in the same style, the blade being broader towards the tip. Attached Images

12th December 2009, 02:20 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Another possible origin for your blade is India. I have seen quite a few blades of this form with the same markings, which were made in imitation of European markings, and in my opinion this entire ensemble is more likely to date to the 19th century rather than much earlier. Out of curiosity, does the spine from the hilt to the point it drops down towards the middle of the blade made with a recess or groove?

12th December 2009, 04:47 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	India exported a lot of steel and blades to Arabia and the African east coast from very early times, and the way the blade is looking, I think India may be a possible place of origin. Jens

12th December 2009, 05:59 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Great example Ilias......and of what appears to be an Arabian style 'nimcha' or sa'if with multi quilloned hilt. On the blade, I very much agree with the excellent points made by Rsword (Rick), Jens and Rick in the plausibly Indian blade. Whatever the case, it is indeed a trade blade, and most likely of 19th century as noted. Mauro's example is another excellent example of Arab style nimcha which has become known as the 'Zanzibar' form, from the distinct ring on the crossguard, identified from the Buttin collection (Rumilly, 1933, examples 998-1002). It appears to be a genuinely early example, as shown in these in this catalog. The pommels on these reflect the styles on Arab hilts from 18th into 19th century in Hadhramaut and Yemen, and the 'Zanzibar' type sabres were typically very much 18th and 19th century products carried in the Omani trade from that Sultanate, perhaps into early 20th century. During these times, the Arab trade carried swords and blades from the west coast Malabar regions to Arabia and into the Red Sea trade routes. It would therefore seem quite plausible that such blades, very much favored by the well known pirate groups on the eastern littoral of Arabia would have been a sound possibility for Ilias' sword. Sabres with this widened tip blade are seen in Elgood's book on Arabian arms, and with varying open hilt styles also of the 'karabela' profile. The 'Zanzibar' style hilt of Mauro's sword is of the form noted from the Buttin reference and these were notably prevalent in Yemen in the latter 19th century. A large group of these were discovered in a Yemeni armoury in recent times. Although Buttin's catalog suggests 17th-18th century for these, the period was a benchmark for the form which seems to derive from earlier Italian hilts which of course were well known in these trade routes. In looking at Mauro's outstanding example, I very much believe it is likely a 17th century example, which well supports the early period for these types which were produced in that tradition into the later periods noted. The markings seen are interpretations of early examples from Italian blades which were of course quality and guild associated, and were adopted by many native smiths to presumably imbue certain talismanic properties and suggest quality. It is interesting to note the variations of these remarkably similar nimcha types, and distinguish them from the more familiar Moroccan sa'if. As always, with the profound trade and colonization through these centuries and in these regions, the forms diffused widely. All best regards, Jim

13th December 2009, 12:01 PM	#6
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	I am sorry for my late reply but due to some internet problems I couldn't answer. Thanks everybody for the informations that you gave me. As i see I must say "goodbye" at the 17th-18th c. Nevermind I still like the blade form of that sword. Rsword.Yes at the spine there is a groove.Does it states that it is an Indian blade? All the best Ilias

13th December 2009, 02:56 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Ilias, Yes, that groove in the spine adds further evidence that this is most probably an Indian blade and I suspected it to be there due to the overall shape of the blade. These grooves in the spine are found in Indian swords and also but more rarely on Chinese and East European swords. The blade on this example is most probably a pattern welded blade but wootz would not be out of the question. Take it out in the sunlight and have a close look at the blade, angling it in the sunlight and you may be able to make out some patterning in the blade.