Dagger ID Needed

Robert · 11th December 2009, 10:24 PM

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

Gavin Nugent · 11th December 2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

I would suggest these thimbles also came from Chinese traders, maybe used when newer ones became available, most likely originally from Europe though.
I tentatively suggest this as the Chinese traded greatly in textiles and it seems more than possible given the knife styling.
I too would agree with the 1880+ dating though maybe 30 years earlier.

Gav

Battara · 12th December 2009, 05:01 AM

I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end.

I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet.

The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"

Hotspur · 13th December 2009, 12:04 AM

My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm

Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures.

The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger.

Cheers

GC

One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai

An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall.

Atlantia · 13th December 2009, 12:58 AM

Date wise, the construction looks 19thC to me, possibly mid. Especially the thimbles.

migueldiaz · 20th December 2009, 01:18 PM

Dimasalang, where are you when we need you?!

Your knowledge on Katipunan-era daggers would be me most useful here sir.

Dimasalang · 23rd December 2009, 12:24 AM

Sorry, been busy Xmas shopping. hehe

I reread the posts here and took a long hard look at this piece. I agree it is from the Philippines, as noted by others, the scabbard design and the handle(horn and shape) are just to similar to all the other pieces that come out of the Philippines. And I would definitely agree the blade was a former rifle bayonet. I know many late 19th century bayonets were 3 edged just as this. Curious to know which rifle bayonet this is...doesn't seem to be from a Spanish Rolling Block or Mauser of that time, but there were rifles from all over the world that made it to the Philippines.
From my observation and humble opinion, it looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier then that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands...so I wouldn't say it was pre-Katipunan era. Unlike a bolo which can be excused as a working farm tool, this can not pass as a farm tool, it is a weapon. I wouldn't count this as being made after the 1st Republic era also, because a weapon like this would also be outlawed by the Americans...and the 3 edged bayonets weren't used after this time I believe, as well as Chinese blade smithing in the Luzon area. Bladed fighting weapons were being discreetly manufactured shortly after the Katipunan was established(1892)...and afterwards, open mass production began once the revolution started(1896) and the 1st Republic was established. The horn handle and shape do seem similar to southern Luzon design. The guard and the thimbles are another interesting part...the chinese shape and design stand out. This just turns on another light bulb in my head. Prior to the revolution, Aguinaldo befriended a Chinese named Jose Paua. Paua was born in China and migrated to the Philippines in the early 1890s. He would became one of Aguinaldos bestfriends(Aguinaldo also has Chinese blood), and he would later become an in-law of Aguinaldos. Paua's family trade was blacksmithing during the Spanish era, but was also said to have experience in manufacturing firearms in China(most particularly cannons). Once the war broke out, Aguinaldo turned to Paua for help in producing, not only firearms and cannons, but bladed weapons. For the most part, the Chinese community in all the provinces wanted nothing to do with any revolution or war. Paua was the only pure blooded Chinese to be a high ranking officer in Aguinaldos government...he would later became one of Aguinaldos Generals. Paua used his power and influenced many of the Chinese blacksmiths in Cavite to produce weapons for the Magdiwang and Aguinaldos Magdalo group. Paua was the Chinese connection for the revolution and the 1st Republic. And Cavite is in southern Luzon. I can see one of these Chinese blacksmiths turning a ordinary bayonet in to a dagger with a Chinese/Philippine influential design.
The Chinese in the Philippines were adamant about adding pieces of their culture in to work they were hired to do. An example of this is the enormous Paoay Catholic Church of Ilocos Norte built by the Spanish with the help of Filipinos and Chineses workers, the design is a European and Asian blend. I saw this church in person and wow is it awesome and a sight to behold. Well, thats my 2 centavos worth of jabbering.

13th December 2009, 12:04 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 535	My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up. http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures. The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger. Cheers GC One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall. Attached Images

11th December 2009, 10:24 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself. Robert

12th December 2009, 05:01 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end. I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet. The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"

13th December 2009, 12:58 AM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Date wise, the construction looks 19thC to me, possibly mid. Especially the thimbles.

20th December 2009, 01:18 PM	#6
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Dimasalang, where are you when we need you?! Your knowledge on Katipunan-era daggers would be me most useful here sir.

23rd December 2009, 12:24 AM	#7
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Sorry, been busy Xmas shopping. hehe I reread the posts here and took a long hard look at this piece. I agree it is from the Philippines, as noted by others, the scabbard design and the handle(horn and shape) are just to similar to all the other pieces that come out of the Philippines. And I would definitely agree the blade was a former rifle bayonet. I know many late 19th century bayonets were 3 edged just as this. Curious to know which rifle bayonet this is...doesn't seem to be from a Spanish Rolling Block or Mauser of that time, but there were rifles from all over the world that made it to the Philippines. From my observation and humble opinion, it looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier then that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands...so I wouldn't say it was pre-Katipunan era. Unlike a bolo which can be excused as a working farm tool, this can not pass as a farm tool, it is a weapon. I wouldn't count this as being made after the 1st Republic era also, because a weapon like this would also be outlawed by the Americans...and the 3 edged bayonets weren't used after this time I believe, as well as Chinese blade smithing in the Luzon area. Bladed fighting weapons were being discreetly manufactured shortly after the Katipunan was established(1892)...and afterwards, open mass production began once the revolution started(1896) and the 1st Republic was established. The horn handle and shape do seem similar to southern Luzon design. The guard and the thimbles are another interesting part...the chinese shape and design stand out. This just turns on another light bulb in my head. Prior to the revolution, Aguinaldo befriended a Chinese named Jose Paua. Paua was born in China and migrated to the Philippines in the early 1890s. He would became one of Aguinaldos bestfriends(Aguinaldo also has Chinese blood), and he would later become an in-law of Aguinaldos. Paua's family trade was blacksmithing during the Spanish era, but was also said to have experience in manufacturing firearms in China(most particularly cannons). Once the war broke out, Aguinaldo turned to Paua for help in producing, not only firearms and cannons, but bladed weapons. For the most part, the Chinese community in all the provinces wanted nothing to do with any revolution or war. Paua was the only pure blooded Chinese to be a high ranking officer in Aguinaldos government...he would later became one of Aguinaldos Generals. Paua used his power and influenced many of the Chinese blacksmiths in Cavite to produce weapons for the Magdiwang and Aguinaldos Magdalo group. Paua was the Chinese connection for the revolution and the 1st Republic. And Cavite is in southern Luzon. I can see one of these Chinese blacksmiths turning a ordinary bayonet in to a dagger with a Chinese/Philippine influential design. The Chinese in the Philippines were adamant about adding pieces of their culture in to work they were hired to do. An example of this is the enormous Paoay Catholic Church of Ilocos Norte built by the Spanish with the help of Filipinos and Chineses workers, the design is a European and Asian blend. I saw this church in person and wow is it awesome and a sight to behold. Well, thats my 2 centavos worth of jabbering.