Seven Palm Musket

[fernando]

Gentlemen,
Let me completely disagree .
The Palm measurement has often varied through time, but allways within the range of 20 cms.
It would correspond, for one, to 1 1/3 of the Roman piede (foot) antico, which messured 294,5 mm, still in use in 1840.
The Wikipedia considers the Palm a mesurement to be taken with the hand fully stretched, measuring around 22 cms.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmo
The Span ends up measuring about the same, as it corresponds to half Cubit, in which an (ancient Egiptian) Cubit goes from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.
Apparently the (Egiptian) Cubit is the ancestor of the (Roman) Palm. No doubt that both corespond to the length between the tip of the little finger to the tip of the thumb.
I guess the term Palm is a bit confusing, specially in english, due to being identical to the 'hand palm'.
Is not so ambiguous in (Latin) portuguese as we say palmo for the measure and palma for the hand part.
I believe therefore that the muskets spotted by Tannhauser were indeed much larger than what Michael tends to consider, reason why they were worthy of note.
Also considering the ancient laws that established the legal length of swords, the Palm with 22 cms is the plausible measurement.
King Dom João III, for instance, in his ordination of 1539, defined as within the legal mark, 5 palms for the length of swords, from the pommel to the blade tip; this was about 1,100 mm. These laws were not so much obbeyed, by the way.
Here you will find a contemporaneous converting page, where you can see the measurement of a Portuguese, a Spanish and a Texan Palms.
http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_all.htm
You can also confirm in the page that the span measures about the same.
Fernando

[katana]

Hi Fernando ,
there are differing definitions.....


palm [1]
a traditional unit of distance equal to the width of a person's palm. The palm equals 4 digits or 1/6 cubit, which is about 3 inches or 7.5 centimeters. This unit was used very commonly in medieval and early modern Britain. Similar units, all equal to 1/4 the local "foot" unit, were used throughout northern Europe.
palm [2]
a traditional unit of distance equal to the length of a person's hand, from the wrist to the end of the middle finger. In the English system this unit is equal to 9 inches (22.86 centimeters) and is usually called a span. The confusion between the two palm units is ancient. In Roman times, the longer unit was known as the palmus major and the shorter one as the palmus minor. In the nineteenth century, the 3-inch version was more common in Britain and the 9-inch version was more common in the U.S., perhaps because some Americans were familiar with the comparable Spanish palmo (see below).
palm [3]
a name sometimes used in Dutch for the decimeter (10 centimeters, or about 3.937 inches).
palmo a traditional unit of distance in Spain and Portugal. The traditional Spanish palmo equals 9 pulgadas (see below) or 1/4 vara: this is about 20.9 centimeters in Spain and a little more than that in Spanish Latin America. In Texas, 1/4 vara comes to 8 1/3 inches (21.17 centimeters). Under the metric system in Spain, the palmo is an informal unit equal to 20 centimeters. The Portuguese palmo equals 0.1 braça or about 22.0 centimeters (8.66 inches). These units are based on the width of a person's outstretched hand, from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger, a definition identical to that of the English span.

All the best

[Matchlock]

Hi David,

Thank you for these differentiations.

I fully agree as your definitions nos. 1 and 3 would lead to a measure between ca. 7.5 and 10 cm which is exactly within the span I pleaded for because when multiplied by factors 7 or 9 respectively, it corresponds very closely to the average overall length of a mid 16th century wheel lock gun, may it be called either an arquebus, pistol, carbine or a long gun.


For an impression of proportions, attached please find scans of three mid 16th century wheel lock arquebuses, from top:

- dated 1541, overall length 90 cm, cal. 11 mm (Capodimonte Naples, inv.no. 3193)

- dated 1548, oa. length 95 cm, cal. 14 mm (Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen, inv.no. B 35)

- ca. 1550, oa. length 100 cm, ca. 11.5 mm (Mníchovo Hradiste, Czechia)


Best,
Michael

[katana]

Hi,
after a little more searching found some more info....


Marsigli (1732) Stato Militare dell Imperio Ottomono : Mid 16th C. muskets were `9 palms long' and had a range of 500 to 600 paces, according to reports during the Siege of Malta. Balbi said "we see
the Turkish arqubusers and their most excellent gunpowder shoots much further than ours and have much more penetration because they are longer and have better gunpowder.:
In 1680s…
Marsigli : "….The Turks relied on Christians for their firearms and that the firearm carried by the Turkish soldier is a much heavier musket than any other and takes a ball of 6,9, 12, 15, 25 drams; and
this is a matchlock. Another gun is very similar to the Spanish type but with a different mechanism… (Patella/miquelet lock). The third is the smallest and can be used in one hand is a pistol made like the
(Spanish-like) gun and takes bullets of 4,6,8 drams. The ottoman muskets were much too heavy to carry on campaign or to shoot without a rest, and the musketeer was forced to step back to
absorb the recoil."

In the book "Guns for the sultan: military power and the weapons industry in the Ottoman" ... By Gábor Ágoston there is a reference to barrel length and caliber ...all 16th - 17th Century.

matchlock 120cms 16mm
matchlock 150cms 16mm
matchlock 133cms 19mm

On that basis, once the length of the stock is added ....a 'palm' of 20cms would be 180cms on the '9 palm' (30cm stock ?) and around 140cms for the 7 palm.
Other references mention that the Ottoman muskets were longer than the Christian defenders' in the Siege of Malta ....but there are no measurements.

Regards David

[katana]

Illustrations from 1680s-1705, From Marsigli's 1735 State of the Ottoman Empire ....includes a picture of Janissary muskets (Istanbul Military Museum)
Notice the length of one of the barrels in the illustration.


Regards David

[fernando]

So David, which is the palm that makes more sense in the context of Tannhauser's findings?
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by katana

Notice the length of one of the barrels in the illustration.
Regards David

Exactly, and the short, stout pieces pictured in the foreground are the earliest - although even these miquelets, still retaining some archaic formal criteria, are not of mid 16th century date but can but attributed to mid to late 17th century.

Best,
Michael

[katana]

Hi Micheal,
firstly....I decided to 'attack' this question in 'reverse' so I wanted to discover whether the 'palm' measurement used was the four fingers or the larger 20cms or so. Bearing in mind we were talking of the Turks and Maltese.....both in the Mediterrean area it seemed likely the translation of palm would be the larger measurement. (Bearing in mind the term was widely used by the Romans .....and with widespread trade and conquest would likely become a 'standard' measurement in the area. Also of course, the Byzantine empire (late Roman) was predominately in Turkey.
This made logical sense.

Secondly, there are many references to the fact that 15th Century Ottoman muskets were longer than the Christian's and were more accurate and had longer range....as these were still smoothbore ...the best way to have these better qualities ...is to lenghen the barrel (improved gunpowder could also improve range and the size of the projectile.)

Thirdly, Robert Elgood states in "Firearms of the Islamic world in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait" that......

"....There is a fine 16th Century Turkish matchlock barrel (with a rear peepsight and a grooved foresight, round at the breech with a tulip-shaped muzzle) in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, which has been mounted by a French gunsmith on a wheellock arquebus from the Royal Cabinet of Arms of Louis XIII (Inventory number 3) The length of the barrel is 58 inches (and may be compared with that of (No. 3 in the Tareq Rajab Museum) The Spanish arquebusier Balbi describes the Turkish muskets as “nine palms long”. Turkish matchlocks had a range of 500 to 600 paces according to sources. Christian accounts of Ottoman marksmanship, for example at the siege of Malta in 1565, give full if reluctant praise……”

Please note the Spanish use the larger measurement for the 'palm'. As the barrel described is 58" (divided by 9 ....gives us 6.4 inches), so we can only assume that the 9 palms long included the length of the entire musket.

Hope this clarifies

Regards David

PS.....

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi David,

I am afraid that the examples that you quoted from sources of a much later period than the mid 16th century (ca. 1680-1732), defining earlier pieces which are clearly related to as matchlocks moreover - Tannhauser speaks of wheel locks - cannot be proved right.

Rather than dealing with speculations: what is your opinion on the three actually surviving, original and dated (!) wheel lock (!) guns that I posted? They doubtlessly convey the closest possible impression of the proportions and measurements of a characteristic wheel lock gun of ca. 1540 to 1560.
Sorry but I strongly feel that the only reasonably acceptable scholarly method would in any case be to rely on facts.

Best,
Michael

Micheal I'm a little confused, the Turkish muskets were never described as 'wheellocks' ..................

".....Tannhauser had elected to avoid the rigors of the line by employing his marksmanship. Along with his wheel-lock rifle, he picked up a Turkish seven-palm musket from the stockpile of captured weapons... "

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
after a little more searching found some more info....


Marsigli (1732) Stato Militare dell Imperio Ottomono : Mid 16th C. muskets were `9 palms long' and had a range of 500 to 600 paces, according to reports during the Siege of Malta. Balbi said "we see
the Turkish arqubusers and their most excellent gunpowder shoots much further than ours and have much more penetration because they are longer and have better gunpowder.:
In 1680s…
Marsigli : "….The Turks relied on Christians for their firearms and that the firearm carried by the Turkish soldier is a much heavier musket than any other and takes a ball of 6,9, 12, 15, 25 drams; and
this is a matchlock. Another gun is very similar to the Spanish type but with a different mechanism… (Patella/miquelet lock). The third is the smallest and can be used in one hand is a pistol made like the
(Spanish-like) gun and takes bullets of 4,6,8 drams. The ottoman muskets were much too heavy to carry on campaign or to shoot without a rest, and the musketeer was forced to step back to
absorb the recoil."

In the book "Guns for the sultan: military power and the weapons industry in the Ottoman" ... By Gábor Ágoston there is a reference to barrel length and caliber ...all 16th - 17th Century.

matchlock 120cms 16mm
matchlock 150cms 16mm
matchlock 133cms 19mm

On that basis, once the length of the stock is added ....a 'palm' of 20cms would be 180cms on the '9 palm' (30cm stock ?) and around 140cms for the 7 palm.
Other references mention that the Ottoman muskets were longer than the Christian defenders' in the Siege of Malta ....but there are no measurements.

Regards David

Hi David,

I am afraid that the examples that you quoted from sources of a much later period than the mid 16th century (ca. 1680-1732), defining earlier pieces which are clearly related to as matchlocks moreover - Tannhauser speaks of wheel locks - cannot be proved right.

Rather than dealing with speculations: what is your opinion on the three actually surviving, original and dated (!) wheel lock (!) guns that I posted? They doubtlessly convey the closest possible impression of the proportions and measurements of a characteristic wheel lock gun of ca. 1540 to 1560.

Sorry but I strongly feel that the only reasonably acceptable scholarly method would in any case be to rely on facts.

Best,
Michael