Seven Palm Musket

fernando · 7th December 2009, 12:04 AM

Like so

.

Rick · 7th December 2009, 02:16 PM

Ahhh, thank you Fernando !

We used to play that game with pennies .

broadaxe · 7th December 2009, 05:06 PM

That palm is called shibr or shiber in Arabic and modern Hebrew, hence the term shibriyah which stands for the traditional dagger of the bedouins. According the arab folklore it indicates the lenght of the blade.

Queequeg · 8th December 2009, 08:57 PM

Thanks for the answers, gents. I appreciate having learned about this.

katana · 10th December 2009, 01:50 PM

Hi Fernando,
in Britain, the measurement you show(in your photo) would be a called a 'span' ......a 'palm' is equal to the width of 4 fingers...3 inches or so.

Regards David

Matchlock · 10th December 2009, 02:55 PM

Hi there,

I found these line drawings on entering palm measure at google.

It his, as has been suggested, most probably a length measure taken from a part of the human body. My palm, e.g., measures 9 cm in width.

As Willocks' The Religion is settled in 1565, the mentioning of seven-palm and nine-palm muskets should, in my opinion, refer to the overall length of the guns. Let me just point out as an aside that, as I have mentioned previously, the term musket seems to have arisen in mid-16th century. Most of the guns of that period which we have come to call (h)arquebuses nowadays had an average overall length of ca. 70-90 cm. A significant terminological difference between the shorter and the longer guns did not exist yet.

So, as a conclusion, the idea is quite convincing to me that seven to nine palm guns - no matter whether they were called arquebuses or muskets - would have been about 80 cm long.

Best wishes,
Michael

fernando · 10th December 2009, 05:42 PM

Gentlemen,
Let me completely disagree

.
The Palm measurement has often varied through time, but allways within the range of 20 cms.
It would correspond, for one, to 1 1/3 of the Roman piede (foot) antico, which messured 294,5 mm, still in use in 1840.
The Wikipedia considers the Palm a mesurement to be taken with the hand fully stretched, measuring around 22 cms.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmo
The Span ends up measuring about the same, as it corresponds to half Cubit, in which an (ancient Egiptian) Cubit goes from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.
Apparently the (Egiptian) Cubit is the ancestor of the (Roman) Palm. No doubt that both corespond to the length between the tip of the little finger to the tip of the thumb.
I guess the term Palm is a bit confusing, specially in english, due to being identical to the 'hand palm'.
Is not so ambiguous in (Latin) portuguese as we say palmo for the measure and palma for the hand part.
I believe therefore that the muskets spotted by Tannhauser were indeed much larger than what Michael tends to consider, reason why they were worthy of note.
Also considering the ancient laws that established the legal length of swords, the Palm with 22 cms is the plausible measurement.
King Dom João III, for instance, in his ordination of 1539, defined as within the legal mark, 5 palms for the length of swords, from the pommel to the blade tip; this was about 1,100 mm. These laws were not so much obbeyed, by the way.
Here you will find a contemporaneous converting page, where you can see the measurement of a Portuguese, a Spanish and a Texan Palms.
http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_all.htm
You can also confirm in the page that the span measures about the same.
Fernando

7th December 2009, 12:04 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Like so . Attached Images

10th December 2009, 02:55 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi there, I found these line drawings on entering palm measure at google. It his, as has been suggested, most probably a length measure taken from a part of the human body. My palm, e.g., measures 9 cm in width. As Willocks' The Religion is settled in 1565, the mentioning of seven-palm and nine-palm muskets should, in my opinion, refer to the overall length of the guns. Let me just point out as an aside that, as I have mentioned previously, the term musket seems to have arisen in mid-16th century. Most of the guns of that period which we have come to call (h)arquebuses nowadays had an average overall length of ca. 70-90 cm. A significant terminological difference between the shorter and the longer guns did not exist yet. So, as a conclusion, the idea is quite convincing to me that seven to nine palm guns - no matter whether they were called arquebuses or muskets - would have been about 80 cm long. Best wishes, Michael Attached Images

7th December 2009, 02:16 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Ahhh, thank you Fernando ! We used to play that game with pennies .

7th December 2009, 05:06 PM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	That palm is called shibr or shiber in Arabic and modern Hebrew, hence the term shibriyah which stands for the traditional dagger of the bedouins. According the arab folklore it indicates the lenght of the blade.

8th December 2009, 08:57 PM	#4
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Thanks for the answers, gents. I appreciate having learned about this.

10th December 2009, 01:50 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, in Britain, the measurement you show(in your photo) would be a called a 'span' ......a 'palm' is equal to the width of 4 fingers...3 inches or so. Regards David

10th December 2009, 05:42 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, Let me completely disagree . The Palm measurement has often varied through time, but allways within the range of 20 cms. It would correspond, for one, to 1 1/3 of the Roman piede (foot) antico, which messured 294,5 mm, still in use in 1840. The Wikipedia considers the Palm a mesurement to be taken with the hand fully stretched, measuring around 22 cms. http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmo The Span ends up measuring about the same, as it corresponds to half Cubit, in which an (ancient Egiptian) Cubit goes from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger. Apparently the (Egiptian) Cubit is the ancestor of the (Roman) Palm. No doubt that both corespond to the length between the tip of the little finger to the tip of the thumb. I guess the term Palm is a bit confusing, specially in english, due to being identical to the 'hand palm'. Is not so ambiguous in (Latin) portuguese as we say palmo for the measure and palma for the hand part. I believe therefore that the muskets spotted by Tannhauser were indeed much larger than what Michael tends to consider, reason why they were worthy of note. Also considering the ancient laws that established the legal length of swords, the Palm with 22 cms is the plausible measurement. King Dom João III, for instance, in his ordination of 1539, defined as within the legal mark, 5 palms for the length of swords, from the pommel to the blade tip; this was about 1,100 mm. These laws were not so much obbeyed, by the way. Here you will find a contemporaneous converting page, where you can see the measurement of a Portuguese, a Spanish and a Texan Palms. http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_all.htm You can also confirm in the page that the span measures about the same. Fernando