KINDJAL?? QAMA?? FOR COMMENT

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 01:02 PM

See how to look old rivets.
For the modern masters - too much work.

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 01:36 PM

Dear Stuart!
No injuries. On Turkey, I thought because of the imitation of Damascus, the press and the middle of scabbard.
But everything else looks more like a modern art work of the Caucasus.
Currently works a huge industry, for the production of fakes and replicas. And in Turkey, and in Caucasus. There are some things that to understand difficult, to experts.
I hope you do not pay much expensive.
Regards

kahnjar1 · 2nd December 2009, 05:24 PM

DEFINATELY NOT a modern piece. The KNOWN (and indisputable) provenance is that this piece was one of several edged weapons collected by well known local family during a world journey in the 1930s. The fullers are in my opinion NOT designed to resemble damascus but are purely finely decorated in the "valleys". As stated before, the centre section of the scabbard has been added later. The Niello work is not rough. I will try to post better pics of that.
What about a comment as to origin of the blade mark?
Regards Stuart

TVV · 2nd December 2009, 07:01 PM

Stu,

If you trust the previous owner's story based on his word, then I guess this settles it. But if you feel you need to consult the collective knowledge of the forum, then you should be prepared to explore all possibilities, including the ones, which are not nice.

To me, this kindjal looks like an old blade in modern fittings.

There are a lot of reproductions, varying in quality, coming out of the Caucasus nowadays - from the Kizlyar factory in Dagestan to numerous small shops in Georgia. The rules prevent me from linking to eBay, but if you do a quick search, you can easily find an eBay store from Georgia, which offers antiques as well as modern reproductions (souvenirs) of decent quality. Then you can examine the reproductions and see why so many of us here suspect that the fittings of the kindjal you posted are modern - post WW2 at the earliest.

As for the marking, the crescent and star are found on the flags of Turkey and Azerbaijan. I guess this may have prompted the Turkish attribution, along with the multiple, centrally placed fullers. Such blade style is often found on Turkish pieces.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but I think it would benefit you the most to read as many varying opinions as possible, and then decide for yourself.

Best regards,
Teodor

kahnjar1 · 3rd December 2009, 04:01 AM

Thanks TVV. I agree and am always open to all opinions. It would be very naive not to listen to other opinions. However the provenace says something else, so I am in a bit of a quandry. I DO take the point that the piece looks to be in very good order, but then we do not know how it was stored over the years. Many weapons from ages long gone have survived in remarkably good order.
I did originally post this item for comment and am happy will all opinions.

Regards Stuart

asomotif · 3rd December 2009, 11:35 AM

hello Stuart,

Intersting thread.
I have zero knowledge of Kindjals, but of course I am interested in estimating/determaning the age of pieces.

I can imagine why some say that this is a new piece.
The silver work is very clean and shiny
Has the silver work been cleaned recently ?
Can you post another picture with a close up of the back of the scabbard ?
The back seems to have more age/wear and tear that the front

Best regards,
Willem

A Senefelder · 3rd December 2009, 02:28 PM

Howdy, very nice piece. I dabbled a very little bit in kinjal and qama in the late 90's. My little research left me with the impression at the time that qama tended to be completley covered in silve/nickel/ niello both hilt and scabbard ( like the kinjal the front would be decorated, while the back, the side that layed against the hip would be left plain ) while kinjals used less silver/nickel/ neillo decoration, the hilts often being left plain other than the rivets and perhaps a small panel set in the horn. I am far from an expert ( very far ) but from what I remember the pretty complete use of silver/nickel/neillo would have this seeming more possilby to be a Georgian qama. I owned several kinjals with a similar etched pattern in the fullers, and was left curious at the time if it wasn't some kind of Islamic script done in proffusion, given the Islamic influence in the region.

2nd December 2009, 01:02 PM	#1
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	See how to look old rivets. For the modern masters - too much work. Attached Images

2nd December 2009, 01:36 PM	#2
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Dear Stuart! No injuries. On Turkey, I thought because of the imitation of Damascus, the press and the middle of scabbard. But everything else looks more like a modern art work of the Caucasus. Currently works a huge industry, for the production of fakes and replicas. And in Turkey, and in Caucasus. There are some things that to understand difficult, to experts. I hope you do not pay much expensive. Regards

2nd December 2009, 05:24 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	DEFINATELY NOT a modern piece. The KNOWN (and indisputable) provenance is that this piece was one of several edged weapons collected by well known local family during a world journey in the 1930s. The fullers are in my opinion NOT designed to resemble damascus but are purely finely decorated in the "valleys". As stated before, the centre section of the scabbard has been added later. The Niello work is not rough. I will try to post better pics of that. What about a comment as to origin of the blade mark? Regards Stuart

2nd December 2009, 07:01 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Stu, If you trust the previous owner's story based on his word, then I guess this settles it. But if you feel you need to consult the collective knowledge of the forum, then you should be prepared to explore all possibilities, including the ones, which are not nice. To me, this kindjal looks like an old blade in modern fittings. There are a lot of reproductions, varying in quality, coming out of the Caucasus nowadays - from the Kizlyar factory in Dagestan to numerous small shops in Georgia. The rules prevent me from linking to eBay, but if you do a quick search, you can easily find an eBay store from Georgia, which offers antiques as well as modern reproductions (souvenirs) of decent quality. Then you can examine the reproductions and see why so many of us here suspect that the fittings of the kindjal you posted are modern - post WW2 at the earliest. As for the marking, the crescent and star are found on the flags of Turkey and Azerbaijan. I guess this may have prompted the Turkish attribution, along with the multiple, centrally placed fullers. Such blade style is often found on Turkish pieces. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but I think it would benefit you the most to read as many varying opinions as possible, and then decide for yourself. Best regards, Teodor

3rd December 2009, 04:01 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Thanks TVV. I agree and am always open to all opinions. It would be very naive not to listen to other opinions. However the provenace says something else, so I am in a bit of a quandry. I DO take the point that the piece looks to be in very good order, but then we do not know how it was stored over the years. Many weapons from ages long gone have survived in remarkably good order. I did originally post this item for comment and am happy will all opinions. Regards Stuart

3rd December 2009, 11:35 AM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	hello Stuart, Intersting thread. I have zero knowledge of Kindjals, but of course I am interested in estimating/determaning the age of pieces. I can imagine why some say that this is a new piece. The silver work is very clean and shiny Has the silver work been cleaned recently ? Can you post another picture with a close up of the back of the scabbard ? The back seems to have more age/wear and tear that the front Best regards, Willem

3rd December 2009, 02:28 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Howdy, very nice piece. I dabbled a very little bit in kinjal and qama in the late 90's. My little research left me with the impression at the time that qama tended to be completley covered in silve/nickel/ niello both hilt and scabbard ( like the kinjal the front would be decorated, while the back, the side that layed against the hip would be left plain ) while kinjals used less silver/nickel/ neillo decoration, the hilts often being left plain other than the rivets and perhaps a small panel set in the horn. I am far from an expert ( very far ) but from what I remember the pretty complete use of silver/nickel/neillo would have this seeming more possilby to be a Georgian qama. I owned several kinjals with a similar etched pattern in the fullers, and was left curious at the time if it wasn't some kind of Islamic script done in proffusion, given the Islamic influence in the region.