FRINGIA

ariel · 25th November 2009, 05:43 PM

The picture of the multiple "gurda" markings with a word Frinia indeed, comes from the Astvatsaturyan's book " Weapons of Caucasian nations"
Quote Jim:
I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that.
Well, Jim-sensei, I apologize humbly and profusely, but I have a counter-argument.
Firangi was a word originally reserved for the Portugese; they came to India in 1498. Thus, I see no reason why the word could not have been used in the first half of the 16th century ( King Bathory).My point was that as soon as the Europeans realized that the natives liked the imported blades and called them Firangi, it only made sense to manufacture as many blades clearly marked Fringia to make the natives happy: " I have a real Firangi; it came from the Land of Fringia!"
And some of these blades unquestionably found their way to Central Europe, Caucasus etc.

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2009, 08:38 PM

Hi Ariel,
No need to apologize for that my friend, actually I was hoping for just that

Thank you for bringing the thread back up, and for a well presented counter position which is compelling indeed, and makes very good sense. I am far from being any kind of linguist, so it would be interesting to discover more on the entrance of the firangi/phirangi term into the dialects of Indian language. It seems quite possible that the FRINGIA term therefore might have an Ottoman Turkish root that entered the languages in Eastern Europe as well as those in India with the contact there in varying degree, then as noted, factoring in Portuguese contact .

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 26th November 2009, 04:48 AM

Would it be possible that the word Feringhi to derive simply from Franks? Another spelling on the blades ( as mentioned above) is Francia.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2009, 05:12 AM

Now theres another good suggestion Ariel!
The Franks were of course the key bladesmiths in early times, the ancestors of the Solingen smiths, so perhaps an interesting avenue for research.
I had not thought of that possibility either.......and I have seen the FRANCIA variation.
Lets check further.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 26th November 2009, 12:05 PM

http://1911encyclopedia.org/Feringhi
http://baheyeldin.com/linguistics/th...ic-origin.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/thai/language/section-5.html
http://www.thehindu.com/lr/2007/04/0...0100250600.htm

fernando · 26th November 2009, 03:24 PM

Hi Jim,
Greetings from Portugal

.
So we were called Frangues, Franguis, Fringuins, Fringis, Firinghee; there were even places in Madras, formerly inhabited by Portuguese, called Fringe Burane and Feringhi or Frangula Dibba ...
But i found no evident link between those and the discussed (mark on blades) Fringia

.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2009, 02:54 AM

So as is so often the case, it is transliteration and loaned words that seems to be at the root of this word and its variations.

Francia/frangia/fringia/ferangi.....essentially associated with quality of good steel, as with the early Frankish blades, therefore applied accordingly on trade blades.

No direct or apparant links between the words, but certainly compelling and plausible associations.
You guys are good !!!!

All the best,
Jim

25th November 2009, 05:43 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The picture of the multiple "gurda" markings with a word Frinia indeed, comes from the Astvatsaturyan's book " Weapons of Caucasian nations" Quote Jim: I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that. Well, Jim-sensei, I apologize humbly and profusely, but I have a counter-argument. Firangi was a word originally reserved for the Portugese; they came to India in 1498. Thus, I see no reason why the word could not have been used in the first half of the 16th century ( King Bathory).My point was that as soon as the Europeans realized that the natives liked the imported blades and called them Firangi, it only made sense to manufacture as many blades clearly marked Fringia to make the natives happy: " I have a real Firangi; it came from the Land of Fringia!" And some of these blades unquestionably found their way to Central Europe, Caucasus etc.

25th November 2009, 08:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,579	Hi Ariel, No need to apologize for that my friend, actually I was hoping for just that Thank you for bringing the thread back up, and for a well presented counter position which is compelling indeed, and makes very good sense. I am far from being any kind of linguist, so it would be interesting to discover more on the entrance of the firangi/phirangi term into the dialects of Indian language. It seems quite possible that the FRINGIA term therefore might have an Ottoman Turkish root that entered the languages in Eastern Europe as well as those in India with the contact there in varying degree, then as noted, factoring in Portuguese contact . All the best, Jim

26th November 2009, 04:48 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Would it be possible that the word Feringhi to derive simply from Franks? Another spelling on the blades ( as mentioned above) is Francia.

26th November 2009, 05:12 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,579	Now theres another good suggestion Ariel! The Franks were of course the key bladesmiths in early times, the ancestors of the Solingen smiths, so perhaps an interesting avenue for research. I had not thought of that possibility either.......and I have seen the FRANCIA variation. Lets check further. All the best, Jim

26th November 2009, 12:05 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	http://1911encyclopedia.org/Feringhi http://baheyeldin.com/linguistics/th...ic-origin.html http://www.faqs.org/faqs/thai/language/section-5.html http://www.thehindu.com/lr/2007/04/0...0100250600.htm

26th November 2009, 03:24 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, Greetings from Portugal . So we were called Frangues, Franguis, Fringuins, Fringis, Firinghee; there were even places in Madras, formerly inhabited by Portuguese, called Fringe Burane and Feringhi or Frangula Dibba ... But i found no evident link between those and the discussed (mark on blades) Fringia . Fernando

27th November 2009, 02:54 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,579	So as is so often the case, it is transliteration and loaned words that seems to be at the root of this word and its variations. Francia/frangia/fringia/ferangi.....essentially associated with quality of good steel, as with the early Frankish blades, therefore applied accordingly on trade blades. No direct or apparant links between the words, but certainly compelling and plausible associations. You guys are good !!!! All the best, Jim