Ethics and Policies

Rick · 23rd November 2009, 09:55 PM

Thanks for your input Fearn .

I've contacted Lee to see if the software will allow certain functions for this forum only .

TVV · 24th November 2009, 12:18 AM

I am glad that Alan has brought this issue up. I have often thought about it myself, and it is quite complicated when it comes to enforcing strict rules, as the problem often comes down to original intent, and intent is a very difficult thing to determine without the ability to read minds.

Let me start by stating that I like the Swap Forum as part of this portal. It is definitely not the main reason I visit here, but I like the idea that if a member wishes to part with an item he or she no longer desires, the rest of us would get a chance at it. I believe in one or two instances, the items I bought through the Swap Forum had been discussed in the main discussion forums (but not immediately preceding their posting for sale).

With this said, I do not mind even those members, who are here solely as dealers. The reason is, as a collector I need dealers, and I actually like to have access to their items here as well.

What I do not like, however, is when an item is posted for discussion, without the poster acknowlidging his intention to sell. As discussed before, there should not be a problem when a regular collector decides to part with an item after receiving comments on it. The issue, if I understand correctly are the cases in which a dealer tries to disguise his real intentions only to abuse the collective knowledge in these forums.

Those cases leave a bad taste, because we feel deceived, and I often find myself unwilling to comment on certain items, as I suspect that the poster is just gathering info to help with a sale.

It would be great therefore that posters, who are contemplating the sale of the item they put up for discussion, simply specify so. Obviously, there will be exceptions, but I think it is common sense that if a poster regularly posts items for comments only to have a "change of heart" shortly thereafter, this would constitute a breach of the rules.

I also want to suggest another rule - since potential sellers would benefit from the knowledge others will share with them pertaining to their item, they should probably give back to the forum community. The simplest way to do this would be to list the item here, in the swap forum first, for at least a week. If it does not sell, then I would not mind them looking at other options, but I feel it is only fair to give a first chance to the other members here, as a token of gratitude for all the info received.

Best regards,
Teodor

Rick · 24th November 2009, 01:46 AM

Thank you Teodor; I agree with much of what you have said ; especially the idea of exclusive pre auction time here regarding kerises .

Speaking for myself, I would dislike to see 'keris for discussion(and quick sale)' posted in the Warung .

This is not what the Warung is about .
Our up front Dealer/Member/Contributors of many years standing all know that .

If one wishes to use the Warung for gathering information and, (after a decent amount of time) decides to part with the keris discussed then I have no problem with that .*

*Links to (or quotes from) the discussion (in any venue) will still have to be approved by authors of pertinent posts in that referenced thread .

Jeff D · 24th November 2009, 02:06 AM

Using Alan's sports analogy. I think they should have a "open" Olympics where not only professionals, but, also any performance enhancing agents found are allowed. Let anybody who wants to watch that, go right ahead. All will be on the same footing. They should continue the regular Olympics with the original values, where anyone found cheating should be banned for life with a penalty to the hosting nation so they put a real effort into preventing it from happening.
Likewise I would like to see a subforum of the swap. Here anyone who wants info on a for sale or a soon to be for sale item can post. Contributers who want to contribute real or fraudulent information can go for it. Anybody found using the regular forum for this activity should be banned to sword forum international for life.

My 2 cents.
Jeff

Rick · 24th November 2009, 02:37 AM

Thanks Jeff ....

I think .

kai · 24th November 2009, 09:06 AM

I agree on a moratorium: 3 months seem ok to me; 1 month is a bit short. (Make it months from the day of posting - there will always be some who inadvertently mess up counts by a day or two...)

I believe any new rules should apply to all EAAF fora - fishing for information to promote sales is not limited to keris and I believe the same standards should apply to the whole community here. (I believe this has been the intention in setting up and maintaining this wonderful resource - please correct me if I got it wrong, Lee!)

As already pointed out, it's fairly easy to spot repeated commercial behavior on this site; however, I'd be more concerned with info gained here and (ab)used elsewhere (ebay, etc.). Thus, if any info gained here were to be utilized freely elsewhere, I'd still need to frame my answers here on the forum accordingly (not different from the current situation). IMHO the moratorium should apply to all venues. We would certainly miss some offending sales; however, I'm confident that repeated offenders will get caught by the community.

I'm not yet sure how to deal with honest change-of-heart situations as pointed out by Detlef. There are also newbies who would like to get info on inherited pieces or souvenirs. Some realize that collecting is not their thing and decide to sell off the piece under discussion (many just prefer a little cash or want to get rid of the tourist trinket but there are also those who realize that a valued family heirloom may be better cared for in a specialized collection and may even aid research). I'm not convinced that imposing the moratorium in those cases would be sensible.

How about another subforum dedicated to identification of unknown, weird, and possibly-for-sale pieces? Comments in such a subforum could be considered free to utilize for possible future sale and answers framed accordingly by those choosing to give advice. I could also envision that threads posted in any of the other fora could be moved to this special "quarantine section" once the thread starter has acquired permission from all contributors. Moreover, it would seem suitable to me to be able to move an identification thread over to the swap forum (shouldn't be noticeably more work for the moderators, I guess). This would also allow an exclusive offering in the swap forum before a seller decides to move on to other venues (if such a separate - possibly 1 week - moratorium is deemed preferable). IMHO it should also be possible to move an identification thread over to the more pertinent subforum if the owner decides to keep it in his collection (for the next 3 months) and would like to get more detailed discussion.

In short: In-depth discussion of pieces deemed to stay in the own collection in the major subfora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi, European Armoury), offers and trades in the Swap Forum, and a flexible Identification Resource to fill the gap in between.

BTW, I still feel that keris sundang (Moro kris) and tombak (and rencong, and badek, etc.) should be an integral part of the Keris Warung Kopi. Arguably, it would make much more sense to include all stuff from the SEA archipelago (Malay culture in a very wide sense) here. Yeah, just nagging...

Regards,
Kai

David · 24th November 2009, 12:58 PM

Thanks for you comments Kai. I think some of it tends to get too complex and i am not sure that opening up other forums to deal with appraisals is really the way to go here. I know that all this talk get people worried about severe daconian rules, but i think that what Rick and i have in mind will in the end be the most simple solutions we can find to a rather complex issue.
Personally i am opposed to extending a moratorium on the sale of forum discussed items beyond the virtual walls of our little forum. As i mentioned before, i don't think it is our obligation or right to police the entire internet in these cases. My concerns are what goes on in our own backyard, the abuses that are happening right here. If someone decides to sell a keris on eBay even immediately after getting information from his thread on our forum that's fine with me as long as he does not quote any member's comments in his auction, make any allusion to his keris being "approved" or "validated" by our keris forum and he places no notice of his sale on eBay (or elsewhere) in our Swap Forum for at least 30 days.
Members who have an "honest change-of-heart" have numerous other venues to dispose of their unwanted keris other than our Swap Forum, ones that have a much larger audience than us as well. Detlef should feel no remorse for his actions because no such rule exists as of yet and he did not transgress in any way. But once a rule is in place however members will know differently.

ward · 24th November 2009, 01:09 PM

I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?

24th November 2009, 01:46 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,374	Thank you Teodor; I agree with much of what you have said ; especially the idea of exclusive pre auction time here regarding kerises . Speaking for myself, I would dislike to see 'keris for discussion(and quick sale)' posted in the Warung . This is not what the Warung is about . Our up front Dealer/Member/Contributors of many years standing all know that . If one wishes to use the Warung for gathering information and, (after a decent amount of time) decides to part with the keris discussed then I have no problem with that .* Links to (or quotes from) the discussion (in any venue) will still have to be approved by authors of pertinent posts in that referenced thread . Last edited by Rick; 24th November 2009 at 02:00 AM.*

23rd November 2009, 09:55 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,374	Thanks for your input Fearn . I've contacted Lee to see if the software will allow certain functions for this forum only .

24th November 2009, 12:18 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,721	I am glad that Alan has brought this issue up. I have often thought about it myself, and it is quite complicated when it comes to enforcing strict rules, as the problem often comes down to original intent, and intent is a very difficult thing to determine without the ability to read minds. Let me start by stating that I like the Swap Forum as part of this portal. It is definitely not the main reason I visit here, but I like the idea that if a member wishes to part with an item he or she no longer desires, the rest of us would get a chance at it. I believe in one or two instances, the items I bought through the Swap Forum had been discussed in the main discussion forums (but not immediately preceding their posting for sale). With this said, I do not mind even those members, who are here solely as dealers. The reason is, as a collector I need dealers, and I actually like to have access to their items here as well. What I do not like, however, is when an item is posted for discussion, without the poster acknowlidging his intention to sell. As discussed before, there should not be a problem when a regular collector decides to part with an item after receiving comments on it. The issue, if I understand correctly are the cases in which a dealer tries to disguise his real intentions only to abuse the collective knowledge in these forums. Those cases leave a bad taste, because we feel deceived, and I often find myself unwilling to comment on certain items, as I suspect that the poster is just gathering info to help with a sale. It would be great therefore that posters, who are contemplating the sale of the item they put up for discussion, simply specify so. Obviously, there will be exceptions, but I think it is common sense that if a poster regularly posts items for comments only to have a "change of heart" shortly thereafter, this would constitute a breach of the rules. I also want to suggest another rule - since potential sellers would benefit from the knowledge others will share with them pertaining to their item, they should probably give back to the forum community. The simplest way to do this would be to list the item here, in the swap forum first, for at least a week. If it does not sell, then I would not mind them looking at other options, but I feel it is only fair to give a first chance to the other members here, as a token of gratitude for all the info received. Best regards, Teodor

24th November 2009, 02:06 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Using Alan's sports analogy. I think they should have a "open" Olympics where not only professionals, but, also any performance enhancing agents found are allowed. Let anybody who wants to watch that, go right ahead. All will be on the same footing. They should continue the regular Olympics with the original values, where anyone found cheating should be banned for life with a penalty to the hosting nation so they put a real effort into preventing it from happening. Likewise I would like to see a subforum of the swap. Here anyone who wants info on a for sale or a soon to be for sale item can post. Contributers who want to contribute real or fraudulent information can go for it. Anybody found using the regular forum for this activity should be banned to sword forum international for life. My 2 cents. Jeff

24th November 2009, 02:37 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,374	Thanks Jeff .... I think .

24th November 2009, 09:06 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I agree on a moratorium: 3 months seem ok to me; 1 month is a bit short. (Make it months from the day of posting - there will always be some who inadvertently mess up counts by a day or two...) I believe any new rules should apply to all EAAF fora - fishing for information to promote sales is not limited to keris and I believe the same standards should apply to the whole community here. (I believe this has been the intention in setting up and maintaining this wonderful resource - please correct me if I got it wrong, Lee!) As already pointed out, it's fairly easy to spot repeated commercial behavior on this site; however, I'd be more concerned with info gained here and (ab)used elsewhere (ebay, etc.). Thus, if any info gained here were to be utilized freely elsewhere, I'd still need to frame my answers here on the forum accordingly (not different from the current situation). IMHO the moratorium should apply to all venues. We would certainly miss some offending sales; however, I'm confident that repeated offenders will get caught by the community. I'm not yet sure how to deal with honest change-of-heart situations as pointed out by Detlef. There are also newbies who would like to get info on inherited pieces or souvenirs. Some realize that collecting is not their thing and decide to sell off the piece under discussion (many just prefer a little cash or want to get rid of the tourist trinket but there are also those who realize that a valued family heirloom may be better cared for in a specialized collection and may even aid research). I'm not convinced that imposing the moratorium in those cases would be sensible. How about another subforum dedicated to identification of unknown, weird, and possibly-for-sale pieces? Comments in such a subforum could be considered free to utilize for possible future sale and answers framed accordingly by those choosing to give advice. I could also envision that threads posted in any of the other fora could be moved to this special "quarantine section" once the thread starter has acquired permission from all contributors. Moreover, it would seem suitable to me to be able to move an identification thread over to the swap forum (shouldn't be noticeably more work for the moderators, I guess). This would also allow an exclusive offering in the swap forum before a seller decides to move on to other venues (if such a separate - possibly 1 week - moratorium is deemed preferable). IMHO it should also be possible to move an identification thread over to the more pertinent subforum if the owner decides to keep it in his collection (for the next 3 months) and would like to get more detailed discussion. In short: In-depth discussion of pieces deemed to stay in the own collection in the major subfora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi, European Armoury), offers and trades in the Swap Forum, and a flexible Identification Resource to fill the gap in between. BTW, I still feel that keris sundang (Moro kris) and tombak (and rencong, and badek, etc.) should be an integral part of the Keris Warung Kopi. Arguably, it would make much more sense to include all stuff from the SEA archipelago (Malay culture in a very wide sense) here. Yeah, just nagging... Regards, Kai

24th November 2009, 12:58 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,244	Thanks for you comments Kai. I think some of it tends to get too complex and i am not sure that opening up other forums to deal with appraisals is really the way to go here. I know that all this talk get people worried about severe daconian rules, but i think that what Rick and i have in mind will in the end be the most simple solutions we can find to a rather complex issue. Personally i am opposed to extending a moratorium on the sale of forum discussed items beyond the virtual walls of our little forum. As i mentioned before, i don't think it is our obligation or right to police the entire internet in these cases. My concerns are what goes on in our own backyard, the abuses that are happening right here. If someone decides to sell a keris on eBay even immediately after getting information from his thread on our forum that's fine with me as long as he does not quote any member's comments in his auction, make any allusion to his keris being "approved" or "validated" by our keris forum and he places no notice of his sale on eBay (or elsewhere) in our Swap Forum for at least 30 days. Members who have an "honest change-of-heart" have numerous other venues to dispose of their unwanted keris other than our Swap Forum, ones that have a much larger audience than us as well. Detlef should feel no remorse for his actions because no such rule exists as of yet and he did not transgress in any way. But once a rule is in place however members will know differently.

24th November 2009, 01:09 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?