Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

katana · 21st November 2009, 07:29 PM

Hi Mark,
there seems to be markings/numerals near the hilt, is that the case ?

David

Dmitry · 22nd November 2009, 04:41 AM

I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

colin henshaw · 17th January 2010, 12:30 PM

Hi Mark

The whole subject of West Africa, the slave trade, trade in gold, ivory etc and European contact and colonialism, is a huge one, and there are many good books on the subject.

Certainly, the sword has a connection with the slave trade and shipping, so I guess there is always a possibility that piracy could come into it somewhere... Research required !

Regards
Colin

M ELEY · 18th January 2010, 02:13 PM

Thanks, Colin for your input and PM on this piece. You are right about the research, but I am looking forward to it, as it is a fascinating and tragic tale. That dagger you had was an impressive piece. I'll let everyone know if there are any new developments...

Jim McDougall · 18th January 2010, 05:28 PM

Research required!!! I absolutely love those words!!!

Well done Colin, and I think you have presented the case for Africa with the hanger that is the original subject of this thread well. Excellent example from Ghana and good support for the styling.

While a distasteful topic, the West Coast of Africa's participation in the Atlantic slave trade is a necessarily recognized element of the history of these regions of Togo, Dahomey (now Benin) and West Nigeria.
With Dahomey the principal slave state of these, one of the key ports was that of Ouidah. The infamous 'triangular trade' from Africa to the West Indies and to England was well established in the opening years of the 18th century, and the export of slaves by Portuguese, French, Spanish and English carried them to the West Indies colonies as well as to Brazil.

Naturally, the 'Golden Age' of piracy was in its zenith in these times, and the lucrative commodities that comprised the ill gotten gains of this tragic industry were the target of the pirates...not to mention the desirable ships themselves.

In 1715, a fast, heavy galley, the Whydah (named for the key slave port of Ouidah) was launched to enter this trade. In 1717, this ship while nearing the Bahamas was set upon by the pirate Black Sam Bellamy and his crew in two ships, and captured. The Whydah served them well for the next two months and they plundered some 50 ships, but thier luck ran out April 26,1717 when they were headed back to Cape Cod with loads of plunder. The galley sank in a huge storm, and only 2 of 146 survived. Much of this detail is covered in a great exhibition and article by National Geographic.

The kingdom of Dahomey lasted until 1894, when it became part of French West Africa. While the term slave coast had long since given way, thankfully to other terms such as Ivory, Gold or simply West coasts, like many African regions, turbulence has constantly returned.

It would seem that the 'triangular trade' as well as the well established 'Spanish Main', which both concurrently existed in many of these common regions, would have presented profound diffusion of weapon forms through all of them.

I think this hanger well represents the much earlier influences of the 17th and 18th century in styling that seems to be crudely presented with materials that are more modern, and intended to recall in throwback fashion, these earlier weapons. The spiral gadroon cage around the grip seems to serve as a functional and sound cover around the wood.
What is interesting is the extended 'spur' of the knuckleguard which protrudes past the pommel, very similar it seems to some 17th century English hilts, especially on some of the hangers.

While it is hard to determine whether this sword was fashioned in more modern times to appear more like one of the early hangers to attract collectors, or for use among the well known illicit activities that still prevail, but in the time when swords were still viable as weapons at sea, is hard to say.

It is well known that pirates were deliberately ostentatiously, even dandyish in sometimes almost garish fashion, in almost a rebellious, taunting manner.
They were rebellious figures with no allegiance to nation, codes, mores, nor convention and they enjoyed certain flamboyant actions and appearance, much like celebrity characters or as the 'goth' genre and its followers.

It would not be hard to 'fathom' smugglers or such illicit enterprenuers of even early 20th century fabricating such weapons from probably the components of earlier weapons found in these regions in less than intact condition.

An optimistic perspective, but nevertheless I believe plausible.

aiontay · 18th January 2010, 11:33 PM

Although it is a couple of centuries earlier than the weapon in question, Francis Drake got his start raiding the Spanish during a slave trading expedition run by John Hawkins. Hawkins may not have been a pirate, but his trading methods had more buccaneer than Better Business Bureau in them.

katana · 19th January 2010, 01:09 AM

Hi Mark,
I thought this relavent to the thread.....here is one the members of my "Mystery Pile"

.

An Africanised Cutless ....believed an european blade, scabbard and hilt 'style' ....strongly suggests West African, likely Ivory Coast. Patina of the blade suggest some age (possibly 18th C ) The right place, the right time (perhaps) for tales of slavery, of sea faring and of piracy

.....well thats what I would like to believe

Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it.

All the best
David

celtan · 24th January 2010, 11:07 PM

Ah yes, the San Juan de Ulua "trading" expedition..?

I believe both Drake and Hawkins were indeed pirates, since they often attacked and captured ships that belonged to nations not at war with England, such as Portugal, and initially Spain. In fact, right at the beginning of their Veracruz voyage, they had alraedy captured two ships, one of them portuguese.

They would also attack small coastal villages and plunder them at will. Indeed, a lot of the trading they conducted was of the "or else..." type.
When they could steal they did, and when it suited them, they threatened and traded.

In Veracuz, they had already taken by surprise its small local fort, and crewed the artillery pieces with their own soldiers. They had also taken hostages amongst locals which came to greet the pirates, fooled into believing they were Spanish.

The good Fortune for the locals was that the opportunely arriving Spanish fleet, which trapped Hawkins, had one fighting Galleon amongst the merchant ships.

If Drake had been captured, he would have been hung in the gallows, as any pirate would. Which doesn't negate the fact that he was an astute and courageous sailor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Although it is a couple of centuries earlier than the weapon in question, Francis Drake got his start raiding the Spanish during a slave trading expedition run by John Hawkins. Hawkins may not have been a pirate, but his trading methods had more buccaneer than Better Business Bureau in them.

21st November 2009, 07:29 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark, there seems to be markings/numerals near the hilt, is that the case ? David Attached Images

18th January 2010, 05:28 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Research required!!! I absolutely love those words!!! Well done Colin, and I think you have presented the case for Africa with the hanger that is the original subject of this thread well. Excellent example from Ghana and good support for the styling. While a distasteful topic, the West Coast of Africa's participation in the Atlantic slave trade is a necessarily recognized element of the history of these regions of Togo, Dahomey (now Benin) and West Nigeria. With Dahomey the principal slave state of these, one of the key ports was that of Ouidah. The infamous 'triangular trade' from Africa to the West Indies and to England was well established in the opening years of the 18th century, and the export of slaves by Portuguese, French, Spanish and English carried them to the West Indies colonies as well as to Brazil. Naturally, the 'Golden Age' of piracy was in its zenith in these times, and the lucrative commodities that comprised the ill gotten gains of this tragic industry were the target of the pirates...not to mention the desirable ships themselves. In 1715, a fast, heavy galley, the Whydah (named for the key slave port of Ouidah) was launched to enter this trade. In 1717, this ship while nearing the Bahamas was set upon by the pirate Black Sam Bellamy and his crew in two ships, and captured. The Whydah served them well for the next two months and they plundered some 50 ships, but thier luck ran out April 26,1717 when they were headed back to Cape Cod with loads of plunder. The galley sank in a huge storm, and only 2 of 146 survived. Much of this detail is covered in a great exhibition and article by National Geographic. The kingdom of Dahomey lasted until 1894, when it became part of French West Africa. While the term slave coast had long since given way, thankfully to other terms such as Ivory, Gold or simply West coasts, like many African regions, turbulence has constantly returned. It would seem that the 'triangular trade' as well as the well established 'Spanish Main', which both concurrently existed in many of these common regions, would have presented profound diffusion of weapon forms through all of them. I think this hanger well represents the much earlier influences of the 17th and 18th century in styling that seems to be crudely presented with materials that are more modern, and intended to recall in throwback fashion, these earlier weapons. The spiral gadroon cage around the grip seems to serve as a functional and sound cover around the wood. What is interesting is the extended 'spur' of the knuckleguard which protrudes past the pommel, very similar it seems to some 17th century English hilts, especially on some of the hangers. While it is hard to determine whether this sword was fashioned in more modern times to appear more like one of the early hangers to attract collectors, or for use among the well known illicit activities that still prevail, but in the time when swords were still viable as weapons at sea, is hard to say. It is well known that pirates were deliberately ostentatiously, even dandyish in sometimes almost garish fashion, in almost a rebellious, taunting manner. They were rebellious figures with no allegiance to nation, codes, mores, nor convention and they enjoyed certain flamboyant actions and appearance, much like celebrity characters or as the 'goth' genre and its followers. It would not be hard to 'fathom' smugglers or such illicit enterprenuers of even early 20th century fabricating such weapons from probably the components of earlier weapons found in these regions in less than intact condition. An optimistic perspective, but nevertheless I believe plausible. Attached Images

19th January 2010, 01:09 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark, I thought this relavent to the thread.....here is one the members of my "Mystery Pile" . An Africanised Cutless ....believed an european blade, scabbard and hilt 'style' ....strongly suggests West African, likely Ivory Coast. Patina of the blade suggest some age (possibly 18th C ) The right place, the right time (perhaps) for tales of slavery, of sea faring and of piracy .....well thats what I would like to believe Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it. All the best David Attached Images

22nd November 2009, 04:41 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

17th January 2010, 12:30 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Mark The whole subject of West Africa, the slave trade, trade in gold, ivory etc and European contact and colonialism, is a huge one, and there are many good books on the subject. Certainly, the sword has a connection with the slave trade and shipping, so I guess there is always a possibility that piracy could come into it somewhere... Research required ! Regards Colin

18th January 2010, 02:13 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Colin for your input and PM on this piece. You are right about the research, but I am looking forward to it, as it is a fascinating and tragic tale. That dagger you had was an impressive piece. I'll let everyone know if there are any new developments...

18th January 2010, 11:33 PM	#6
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Although it is a couple of centuries earlier than the weapon in question, Francis Drake got his start raiding the Spanish during a slave trading expedition run by John Hawkins. Hawkins may not have been a pirate, but his trading methods had more buccaneer than Better Business Bureau in them.