Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2009, 03:55 AM

Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations

It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going.
This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify.
The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ?
Interesting though!!!!
I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay!
All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 20th November 2009, 08:18 AM

Thank you, Jim and David for responding.
David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes.

Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual.

Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2009, 09:40 PM

Hi Mark,
Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb.
Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons.

I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent.

The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation

As always, looking forward to thoughts of others.

Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!!

All the best,
Jim

pbleed · 21st November 2009, 02:40 AM

Friends,
This list is consistently polite and positive and I admire that, but....
I have to say that I am very suspicious of this piece. The blade and the guard may be all right, but the grip just looks, well, hinky. I bet the metal is either lead or pewter - and sure it could be zinc or "spelter" -This kind of work is EASY. If you have not already studied them, I recommend Ben Hunt's wonder books on "Indian craft." He shows how to this kind of work and it is not a big deal. Beyond that, look at how the grip fits the blade. It is klunky and I think bad from a functional point of view. I bet it is very heavy and I just can't believe that it is balanced or comfortable in the hand. Look at how wide the grisp is were it joins the guard. If it had age, I would expect much more wear at this point.
So, I have to wonder if this wasn't make - or assembled or augmented - in a basement workshop, recently.
Forgive me if I am being too suspicious.
Peter

M ELEY · 21st November 2009, 06:13 AM

Hello Peter,

Although the piece is primitive and disappointing to me in that it isn't what I had hoped, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Many "colonial-made" weapons are crude in the way mine is. I have several Spani colonial pieces that could easily have been made in the basement, but have aging and are established patterns. Likewise, most of the American colonial pieces in Neumann's and Moore's guides are clunky, mismatched blades, incorrect balanced, etc. This little dagger is actually very light, has a nice patina and is intended as a true weapon. Likewise, African weapons were made using whatever materials were availible, car engine springs and zinc thermometer cores included. Many Zulu spear blades in the 19th were made from barrel hoops from British kegs. Likewise, I wouldn't place it any earlier than late 19th.

katana · 21st November 2009, 02:04 PM

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

GRRRRR!!!!!!!

Sad....but true.

Actually this thread has gotten monumentally more mileage than the one I posted not too long ago to try talking about espada anchas. Clearly the term 'Spanish hanger' works better, as not that many out there recognize the espada ancha (=Sp. wide sword, broadly describing frontier hangers and swords in New Spain).

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed, and I agree with Mark's position on it overall. I think these are vintage components (and I will find that scrolled pommel strap someplace!) and assembled in the manner that those who desperately need weapons typically have found through the centuries....in any way they can.
Rather than having the appearance of a piece intended to be passed off as something it is not, it seems more a working piece, and using components as best as possible. I have an old Spanish piece comprised of the larger part of one of the Spanish dragoon blades (Do not draw me without reason etc.); the hilt of a briquet (cast brass infantry hanger); and the three bar guard of a cavalry sabre........obviously components that were incongruent, but on the frontiers, pretty didnt matter. Anybody who knows about these rugged wildernesses and those who survived in them knows..everything got recycled!

The pewter or whatever it is, metal, as Peter describes, is certainly a malleable component and the only question really is, how long ago would this particular caged grip have been fashioned? The components such as the blade (and would like to know if there are marks on the blade as 'hawkeye' David keenly observed!

and the guard are old.

Best regards,
Jim

21st November 2009, 02:40 AM	#4
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	Am I too suspicious Friends, This list is consistently polite and positive and I admire that, but.... I have to say that I am very suspicious of this piece. The blade and the guard may be all right, but the grip just looks, well, hinky. I bet the metal is either lead or pewter - and sure it could be zinc or "spelter" -This kind of work is EASY. If you have not already studied them, I recommend Ben Hunt's wonder books on "Indian craft." He shows how to this kind of work and it is not a big deal. Beyond that, look at how the grip fits the blade. It is klunky and I think bad from a functional point of view. I bet it is very heavy and I just can't believe that it is balanced or comfortable in the hand. Look at how wide the grisp is were it joins the guard. If it had age, I would expect much more wear at this point. So, I have to wonder if this wasn't make - or assembled or augmented - in a basement workshop, recently. Forgive me if I am being too suspicious. Peter

20th November 2009, 03:55 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going. This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify. The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ? Interesting though!!!! I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay! All the best, Jim

20th November 2009, 08:18 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, Jim and David for responding. David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes. Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual. Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

20th November 2009, 09:40 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb. Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons. I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent. The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation As always, looking forward to thoughts of others. Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!! All the best, Jim

21st November 2009, 06:13 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Peter, Although the piece is primitive and disappointing to me in that it isn't what I had hoped, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Many "colonial-made" weapons are crude in the way mine is. I have several Spani colonial pieces that could easily have been made in the basement, but have aging and are established patterns. Likewise, most of the American colonial pieces in Neumann's and Moore's guides are clunky, mismatched blades, incorrect balanced, etc. This little dagger is actually very light, has a nice patina and is intended as a true weapon. Likewise, African weapons were made using whatever materials were availible, car engine springs and zinc thermometer cores included. Many Zulu spear blades in the 19th were made from barrel hoops from British kegs. Likewise, I wouldn't place it any earlier than late 19th.

21st November 2009, 02:04 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark, perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input Regards David