two Dutch medieval daggers

cornelistromp · 11th November 2009, 07:36 PM

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KuKulzA28 · 11th November 2009, 08:36 PM

Nice daggers!
Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose?
It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

cornelistromp · 11th November 2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Nice daggers!
Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose?
It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

HI,

the nuts of the Ballock handle (it is the original wooden handle on this dagger)
stop the hand from slanting off similar as a pair of guillons.

the blade is an Armour piercing blade with a reinforced diamant shaped point.
the blade is asymmetrical so it makes it possible to use 2 hands for the killing stab.

best regards

Marc · 12th November 2009, 05:26 PM

The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons.

Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a crossguard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

cornelistromp · 12th November 2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons.

Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a cross-guard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

Hi Marc,

thank you for the compliment for the ballock.

RE: the quillon dagger I think it is just you

Don't let the condition fool you, it is also 100% genuine. the authenticity has been confirmed by the curator of the Dutch army museum.
This is how it is found in the the river Rijn. (only the robe grip is added)

it is not a genuine pommel but a medieval dagger wheel-pommel 3cmx2,5cm
I also found the same type of small dagger wheel-pommel offered at an arms dealer and more convincing a similar dagger is published in Francis laking part 3.
This type of blade of hollow triangular section can be found on the majority of the same period rondel daggers.(around 1400)

I will post some pictures in order to explain.

see picture Francis Laking part 3 page 3 guillon dagger fig 728 , this dagger from the guildhall museum has the same pommel and same guillons however a longer grip and a diamond shaped blade.

The construction of the guillon; the way the blade fits into the guillon is a feature of medieval swords. On later 15thC examples the shoulder of the blade rests on the guillons.

Best regards

Matchlock · 12th November 2009, 10:47 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I have gone quite crazy over those fascinating pictures - man, I wish these beauties were mine! Personally, I like the ballock dagger (Nierendolch) best for its wonderfully staged blade and great condition of preservation.

Thank you so much for the overwhelming close ups and the documentation, buddy! Very good job for all uf us.

Best wishes from Bavaria,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2009, 06:45 AM

Outstanding pieces Cornelis!
On the quillon dagger I think I would have joined with Marc in his very reasonable observation based on the photos alone, and without the data posted afterwards. The material you provided after his observation is most impressive in illustrating the information on the actual disposition of the weapon. The detail on the provenance and authentication from the Dutch Museum are also impressive additions. A remarkable dagger.

The 'ballock' dagger is also most impressive, as these are I believe reasonably rare even without this unusual blade form. I had not heard of a dagger used with two hands in stabbing aming these types. What I do recall of these 'ballock' daggers is that they were once known as 'dudgeon' daggers for the type of boxwood typically used for thier hilts, if I remember correctly.
Also, the collectors of the mid 19th century with prudish correctness (the Victorian version of political correctness) saw fit to avoid the suggestive 'ballock' term by using the less colorful anatomic term, 'kidney' daggers

Best regards,
Jim

11th November 2009, 07:36 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	.. Attached Images

11th November 2009, 08:36 PM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Nice daggers! Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose? It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

12th November 2009, 05:26 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons. Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a crossguard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

12th November 2009, 10:47 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I have gone quite crazy over those fascinating pictures - man, I wish these beauties were mine! Personally, I like the ballock dagger (Nierendolch) best for its wonderfully staged blade and great condition of preservation. Thank you so much for the overwhelming close ups and the documentation, buddy! Very good job for all uf us. Best wishes from Bavaria, Michael

13th November 2009, 06:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,627	Outstanding pieces Cornelis! On the quillon dagger I think I would have joined with Marc in his very reasonable observation based on the photos alone, and without the data posted afterwards. The material you provided after his observation is most impressive in illustrating the information on the actual disposition of the weapon. The detail on the provenance and authentication from the Dutch Museum are also impressive additions. A remarkable dagger. The 'ballock' dagger is also most impressive, as these are I believe reasonably rare even without this unusual blade form. I had not heard of a dagger used with two hands in stabbing aming these types. What I do recall of these 'ballock' daggers is that they were once known as 'dudgeon' daggers for the type of boxwood typically used for thier hilts, if I remember correctly. Also, the collectors of the mid 19th century with prudish correctness (the Victorian version of political correctness) saw fit to avoid the suggestive 'ballock' term by using the less colorful anatomic term, 'kidney' daggers Best regards, Jim