A little pistol for comments

kahnjar1 · 27th October 2009, 05:25 AM

Hi Fernando,
ANOTHER wonderful piece!! You certainly come across some very interesting items.
I would call it either a pocket pistol or perhaps more likely what was popularly called a travelling pistol.
I personally would not call it a derringer.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 27th October 2009, 11:26 AM

Beautiful piece. Caliber?

I hace seen identical verticsl stripes on the striking face of the frizzen in Spanish Migueletes.

Any punzon/poincon armourer's marks?

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Fernando,
ANOTHER wonderful piece!! You certainly come across some very interesting items.
I would call it either a pocket pistol or perhaps more likely what was popularly called a travelling pistol.
I personally would not call it a derringer.
Regards Stuart

Matchlock · 27th October 2009, 05:40 PM

Very well observed, Manuel,

But South Italian, Sardinian and Turkish miquelets too have vertically ribbed frizzens in order to produce a bigger shower of sparks.

Fernando, there seems to be indeed a certain French influence in both the decoration of the barrel and the embossed silver on the stock. As there is no doubt that the lock originally belongs because the figured stock closely follows its characteristical contours, especially at the bottom line, the thesis of a French export model in the Portuguese or Spanish taste is worth considering in my opinion.

Best,
Michael

celtan · 27th October 2009, 09:31 PM

Danke Mike,

Remember that a significant portion of the Spanish Population was kinda' apish of anything that came from enlightened France, the "afrancesados"were usually well to do, I have seen many of their personal accoutrements following french style.

I don't know of any miguelete locks being made in France, which after all invented the flintlock. The spanish/portuguese had the more powerful and reliable Patilla/Miguelete, and also the Madrid and A la mode lock hybrids...

Personally, I don't see the French making a spanish lock. It's easier for me to imagine a spanish armourer making a french styled pistol for some well-to-do petit chevalier-"señorito".

BTW, what was the difference, if any, bt the british and the french flintlocks?

Best

M

fernando · 28th October 2009, 08:11 PM

Hi Manolo,

No, they would not make miquelete locks in France ... did i say so ?

In a wider interpretation of the opinion i talked about, it could either be a French pistol with a Spanish lock or a Spanish pistol in a French decoration style.

" Na minha opinião trata-se de uma pistola de pederneira, com fecho espanhol , com muita influência francesa.
A fecharia é nitidamente espanhola, muito usada nas peças de exportação. Aliás de espanhol só tem a fecharia. Se tivesse uma fecharia à francesa a arma era francesa. Não é de excluir ter sido feita em França para o mercado espanhol ... "

The caliber, as said, is around 15 mm.
There are no marks or punctions.

BTW, let me tell you that, to my ignorant eyes, there is a great resemblance between the lock of the pistol you posted above and my example.
Is that pistol yours? Can you post pictures of the side plate? I heard that if the plate is fixed with several little nails, it could be a Rippol weapon.
Can you establish its origin ... Spanish? Ripoll? this is very important ... please tell.

I have also detected a pistol attributed to Ripoll production, with the barrel in a fashion similar to mine: first section with an upper 3/8 faces and the rest with 16 faces all round:

http://www.armasantiguas.com/avancarca/htm/1086bls.htm

I wonder if this barrel profile is a Spanish (or even Ripoll) exclusive fashion; that might also be a way to confirm the origin of my piece.

Fernando

.

celtan · 30th October 2009, 01:11 PM

Hola Nando,

Michael suggested the french provenance.

Your portuguese source and me share similar opinions.

Zorry! The pistol's images I provided belong to a Spanish pistol found at an online auction service. Sadly, mine was not the winning bid, but I did keep the pictures for future reference.

Now, this one is mine (click on the thumbs) :

Portate mal!

: )

M

Matchlock · 30th October 2009, 06:18 PM

Hi Nando and Manolo,

I could not acccess the forum for two days because of server problems. Now here is what I found out.

I am still convinced that the decorative style of the pistol is French by origin although I cannot prove it. Neither am I able to name the basic differences between French and English flintlocks - sorry, Manolo, there are too many over three centuries of flintlock development. I could do this with sufficient material on matchlocks and wheel-locks but ... no, I won't dare that ...

Nando, I would date your pistol to about 1730-40 on the grounds of the banana shaped concave moulding in the lower edge of the rear part of the lock plate because this is an international dating criterion common to all flintlocks of the said decades.

I attach scans of Italian miquelets, and even one from Vienna, Austria proving that these locks 'alla catalana', and of mediterranean origin, as Arne Hoff put it (Feuerwaffen I, 1969, p. 233) were widely copied while the rest of those guns mostly kept their national characteristics.

Finally I found two Spanish pistols very close to Nando's in the firearms catalog of the Museo Arqueologico Nacional, so please enjoy.

Best,
Mike(y)

27th October 2009, 09:31 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Danke Mike, Remember that a significant portion of the Spanish Population was kinda' apish of anything that came from enlightened France, the "afrancesados"were usually well to do, I have seen many of their personal accoutrements following french style. I don't know of any miguelete locks being made in France, which after all invented the flintlock. The spanish/portuguese had the more powerful and reliable Patilla/Miguelete, and also the Madrid and A la mode lock hybrids... Personally, I don't see the French making a spanish lock. It's easier for me to imagine a spanish armourer making a french styled pistol for some well-to-do petit chevalier-"señorito". BTW, what was the difference, if any, bt the british and the french flintlocks? Best M Attached Images

28th October 2009, 08:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Manolo, No, they would not make miquelete locks in France ... did i say so ? In a wider interpretation of the opinion i talked about, it could either be a French pistol with a Spanish lock or a Spanish pistol in a French decoration style. " Na minha opinião trata-se de uma pistola de pederneira, com fecho espanhol , com muita influência francesa. A fecharia é nitidamente espanhola, muito usada nas peças de exportação. Aliás de espanhol só tem a fecharia. Se tivesse uma fecharia à francesa a arma era francesa. Não é de excluir ter sido feita em França para o mercado espanhol ... " The caliber, as said, is around 15 mm. There are no marks or punctions. BTW, let me tell you that, to my ignorant eyes, there is a great resemblance between the lock of the pistol you posted above and my example. Is that pistol yours? Can you post pictures of the side plate? I heard that if the plate is fixed with several little nails, it could be a Rippol weapon. Can you establish its origin ... Spanish? Ripoll? this is very important ... please tell. I have also detected a pistol attributed to Ripoll production, with the barrel in a fashion similar to mine: first section with an upper 3/8 faces and the rest with 16 faces all round: http://www.armasantiguas.com/avancarca/htm/1086bls.htm I wonder if this barrel profile is a Spanish (or even Ripoll) exclusive fashion; that might also be a way to confirm the origin of my piece. Fernando . Attached Images

30th October 2009, 06:18 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Nando and Manolo, I could not acccess the forum for two days because of server problems. Now here is what I found out. I am still convinced that the decorative style of the pistol is French by origin although I cannot prove it. Neither am I able to name the basic differences between French and English flintlocks - sorry, Manolo, there are too many over three centuries of flintlock development. I could do this with sufficient material on matchlocks and wheel-locks but ... no, I won't dare that ... Nando, I would date your pistol to about 1730-40 on the grounds of the banana shaped concave moulding in the lower edge of the rear part of the lock plate because this is an international dating criterion common to all flintlocks of the said decades. I attach scans of Italian miquelets, and even one from Vienna, Austria proving that these locks 'alla catalana', and of mediterranean origin, as Arne Hoff put it (Feuerwaffen I, 1969, p. 233) were widely copied while the rest of those guns mostly kept their national characteristics. Finally I found two Spanish pistols very close to Nando's in the firearms catalog of the Museo Arqueologico Nacional, so please enjoy. Best, Mike(y) Attached Images

27th October 2009, 05:25 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Fernando, ANOTHER wonderful piece!! You certainly come across some very interesting items. I would call it either a pocket pistol or perhaps more likely what was popularly called a travelling pistol. I personally would not call it a derringer. Regards Stuart

27th October 2009, 05:40 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Very well observed, Manuel, But South Italian, Sardinian and Turkish miquelets too have vertically ribbed frizzens in order to produce a bigger shower of sparks. Fernando, there seems to be indeed a certain French influence in both the decoration of the barrel and the embossed silver on the stock. As there is no doubt that the lock originally belongs because the figured stock closely follows its characteristical contours, especially at the bottom line, the thesis of a French export model in the Portuguese or Spanish taste is worth considering in my opinion. Best, Michael

30th October 2009, 01:11 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hola Nando, Michael suggested the french provenance. Your portuguese source and me share similar opinions. Zorry! The pistol's images I provided belong to a Spanish pistol found at an online auction service. Sadly, mine was not the winning bid, but I did keep the pictures for future reference. Now, this one is mine (click on the thumbs) : Portate mal! : ) M